53 replies to this topic

[Poncho]

Hi guys,

We have a high percentage of newcomers to the hobby active on here and at club events and quite a few that are trying their hand at breeding various types of cichlids.

I've also noticed and made comment at a committee meeting recently that there seems to be a growing percentage of poor quality cichlids getting around at the moment - not necessarily because of hybridisation. I've noticed a few deformities more often like bent or curved spines, lack of caudal peduncle, missing gill plates, dwarfism, lower spine counts in fins.

The advantage of sites like this is that we can get experienced breeders talking and advising new breeders and hopefully coaching them to keep the standards high and produce quality local bred cichlids.

So I was hoping some old hands would share some of the things they do to ensure quality in the fish they breed before trading in or selling on to other fish keepers As its hard for newcomers to know what the right questions are if they haven't bred fish before.

I've only just starting breeding fish again but one thing I do is grab a batch of fry when about 1-2 cm, stick them in a white bucket and view them from above. Any who have a kink or bend in their body go in with the adults and tend to go missing. I usually only get 1 or 2 with bent spines per batch if that but I feel it's a good practice. One thing I've learnt particularly with mouth roofers is that if I strip then I get a higher percentage of bent spines especially if I strip when fry still have yolk sacs.

[Buccal]

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Edited by Buccal, 19 April 2016 - 02:09 PM.

[Poncho]

Ok.....my post was more to try and get advice on how to practically put a bit of QA into hobbyist breeding rather than hear again about what the state of play is in Perth.

 

So when you were breeding and moving juvies on to the local hobby, what kind of things did you do to ensure the fish you sent out were top quality and didn't have things like bent spines etc?

[Chopstick_mike]

This is an awesome idea mate I for one would love to know some tips and tricks from the more experienced breeders.
Buc it's quite sad if that is the road we are on for the cichlid community

[BengaBoy]

[snip]

I've also noticed and made comment at a committee meeting recently that there seems to be a growing percentage of poor quality cichlids getting around at the moment - not necessarily because of hybridisation. I've noticed a few deformities more often like bent or curved spines, lack of caudal peduncle, missing gill plates, dwarfism, lower spine counts in fins.

[snip]

 

I guess there are two issues here, depending on where you are seeing the low quality fish.

 

if they are in the LFS then maybe some "encouragement" to persuade them to improve their acceptance of fry/juveniles.

 

if via private sales then you can only use forums such as these to improve buyer and breeder knowledge.

maybe an occasional "post' on the selling sites?

[DFishkeeper]

I don't believe the major problem exists on forums where there are experienced people available to help beginners who have joined a forum seeking guidance.

 

In SE Qld the major problem is with inexperienced breeders selling poor quality fish to other inexperienced people on facebook and gumtree cheaply. Plus the growth of Pet Barn style stores who have young people with no experience advising customers. And I just don't know how to provide guidance to these people if they are not participating in a forum.

 

I am 61yo and have been breeding African rift lake cichlids for 20+ years now and American cichlids for 10+ years before that. I believe there is no easy way to educate people, particularly if they don't believe they need education.

 

Like anything else in life, efficiency comes with a combination of education and experience. There are lots of avenues available nowadays to obtain information on how particular fish should look, I only had access to pictures in books and other hobbyists through Aquarium clubs and managed to get on the right track.

 

My best advice to beginners is to research how the fish you are breeding should look and spend time observing them as they grow, over time you will develop the ability to see anything out of the norm in a tank full of fish. If one or more fish look different to the majority, then you need to explore that further. And don't try to judge and sell them too small, grow them to at least 5cm for African cichlids when it is much easier to evaluate their quality.

 

Cheers, Doug

[Buccal]

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Edited by Buccal, 19 April 2016 - 02:10 PM.

[Poncho]

That's more like the response I was after - thanks

I agree regarding the fallacy of new bloodlines and hope others can understand what you're saying. I think you always notice the leftovers in shop tanks but more often I'm seeing whole batches of fish with the same deformities to different degrees - particularly the more traditional and established species, as the breeding of them in the hobby may not always have been done with sound line breeding selection and thus the line breeding has unintentionally promoted certain deformities which become exacerbated over time if the same practice is followed.

I do think though that it's unfair to expect lfs staff to be able to filter out all the crap fish. That's a lot of fish to inspect and deformities aren't always obvious so when you inspect a heap of fry on a Saturday morning with 50 customers waiting impatiently for service, things are bound to slip through.

[bigjohnnofish]

not a cichlid pro and dont confess to being one - but an issue i see is simply the price.... .because a lot of these cichlids have dropped in value the serious professional / experienced breeders simply lose interest in breeding good quality fish in quantity as they do not get a decent return at the point of sale...  hence leaving the survival of a species at the hands of novices and people who dont care about quality but keep trying to punch out big numbers to make a buck...  this is where you see the degradation of a species - and in some cases species are lost completely.... im a great advocate of culling... to me cichlids are catfish feeders so if you want to discard below average stock let me know donot dump any unwanted cichlids into waterways , lakes etc.... sorry poncho - got side tracked lol  

i cull anything that isnt up to colour quality or body shape or has bent fins or just doesnt sell.... if you donot look after the quality of future fish you are selling then the day you want to restock that fish is the day you'll never find quality fish to satisfy you... 

[Buccal]

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Edited by Buccal, 19 April 2016 - 02:11 PM.

[Buccal]

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Edited by Buccal, 19 April 2016 - 02:12 PM.

[DFishkeeper]

Although I run my fishroom on one big system, I always run big sponge filters in my fry growout tanks, as heavy feeding can lead to ammonia spikes which can deform young fry. The sponge filters deal with the ammonia very quickly and prevent this, while also giving the fry something to shelter around and nibble on between feeds.

Edited by DFishkeeper, 14 April 2016 - 05:26 AM.

[Poncho]

Sponge filters are great for fry raising.

With the non mouth brooding tangs it can be a little harder to raise fry and I've found that the fry are typically stronger and better, the longer you leave them with the parents as they naturally pick off the weak ones. I've always tried to build up a layer of mulm in the tank so the fry will have a good food source and keeping fry in longer helps new parents establish a stronger pair bond. This is important for fish like trets and kendalli cos if the pair bond fails you're likely to find a dead female in the tank.

I've also seen mass deformity in these types of fish if water hardness isn't up there and typically if you raise large spawns away from parents, you always get a small percentage that just don't grow. I knew a breeder who once the largest fry got to a certain stage, he would just select the smallest 10% and cull them.

[Buccal]

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Edited by Buccal, 19 April 2016 - 02:13 PM.

[Spiesie]

Great topic so far, with something to learn for everyone!

 

Some people with rift lake fish don't bother to much about water chemistry, but it's important,,, your more likely to have the water chemistry causing issues with fish from lake Tang than the rest of the lakes fish,,,,, so get that GH KH set right.
As Poncho indicated, Tang fish are more suseptable,, it's when the GH KH is to low is when the fish begin to develope deficiencies, hence the stunting.
The fishes internal system is always in exchange or trying to balance out with the outside environment, being the osmosis of salts and trace elements between the cells and outside environment,,, when the external environment is lacking these salts and elements, the little content that the fish possesses inside of its cells leach out into the outside environment trying to naturally even out the concentrations of inside and out. (Salts and element deficiencies in fish).
The closer you are to deficiencies, the less colors the fish will show.
Those people with amazing bright colorful healthy fish, are always bang on or very close to good water chemistry.

Is there a natural way of getting GH KH high without needing to use chemicals/buffers/salts?

Edited by Spiesie, 15 April 2016 - 08:26 AM.

[chocky]

Great topic so far, with something to learn for everyone!

 

Is there a natural way of getting GH KH high without needing to use chemicals/buffers/salts?

 

i read before aragonite sand as substrate or in a fluidized filter?

[Westie]

High nitrates from lack of water changes will stunt fry growth and greatly retard rest of growth...

I found this out the hard way......... when trying to raise some dwarf cichlid fry.
I got lazy with my water changes, and lost most of the fry, and the rest ended up stunted. I ended up with dwarf cichlids which should be 6 to 8cm only grow to 3 or 4cm. They ended up as feeders.

Threads like this are useful, as it's better to learn before mistakes happen

I am now on top of water changes, but will give breeding a rest for a while. I think it's important to be passionate about the fish you attempt to breed. This keeps the hobby interesting for me. Also, have a think about how to set up the breeding tanks. I scratch my head when I see people selling their breeding setups to take a break from the hobby. Better off storing it somewhere while you wait for the passion to return. Sorry, I may also be going off topic too.

Water quality is important. I think that for novices (like me), regular testing of the water, and observing fish behaviour goes a long way.

[Buccal]

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Edited by Buccal, 19 April 2016 - 02:14 PM.

[Buccal]

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Edited by Buccal, 19 April 2016 - 02:14 PM.

[Cawdor]

One of the hardest things to do as a fish enthusiast and animal lover in general is to kill them. Especially the ones you have bred yourself, maybe even after trying very hard to get them to breed. But in the end, it has to be done, unless you personally will keep the deformed ones separately. I myself am guilty of keeping some deformed ones alive for longer than I should have.

 

So my tip for newcomers: learn how to kill your fish humanely. You WILL need to use that knowledge either for breeding purposes or to euthanize a sick fish. A bottle of clove oil has been standard in my fish stuff inventory for years.

A few drops of clove oil into a small water bottle with a little water in it, shake it up, tip it into the small container that the sick/deformed fish is in. They will go to sleep in seconds. Put the container in the freezer to finish the job. Done.