117 replies to this topic

[benckie]

i had a yellow fry that was 100 % yellow no black at all and the only thing in the tank was electric yellows pitty i sold them we could od tryd and breed the all black and the all yellow together to see what happens mabe we could of breded normal yellows or like when you mix black and yellow paint we would have electric greens lols

[tangycichlids]

Grow it up, send us pics. Sounds cool to me.

Should we cull albinos while we are at it Terry? Oh hang on you have down that. Don't even know why or what the point is. It is all part of nature.
I mean really, how can we make calls like culling someones fish, that we haven't even seen.

I have a red & white border collie & he is cool.{Caramel in colour} I love it when people ask he looks like a border collie.....
My point, farmers used to drown coloured ones as they were thought to be recessive genes, therefore weak dogs etc. There is nothing wrong with them. Instincts, structure, mannerisms, etc all the same. I bought as he looked cool & he had great markings too.Throws perfect looking black babies with good markings.
Yes I know all dog species are hybrids anyway, just making a little point.

"If" this yellow is a genetic throw back etc, then science says lets play around with it, not kill it. :roll:
Why has there been a black thrown?
What happens if we breed back to normal yellows?......

Would you breed from pale yellow fish because they were different?

No. This is a different kettle of fish, if it is a genetic throwback, that is different when compared to a lesser trait, ie; pale colour.

Noddy brings up a good point, I have seen some cichlids where 1/2 a head is black, part of body etc. I haven't seen a whole fish like that. Possible? Who knows?

Frenchy

[madasa]

Grow it up, send us pics. Sounds cool to me.

Should we cull albinos while we are at it Terry? Oh hang on you have down that. Don't even know why or what the point is. It is all part of nature.
I mean really, how can we make calls like culling someones fish, that we haven't even seen.

I have a red & white border collie & he is cool.{Caramel in colour} I love it when people ask he looks like a border collie.....
My point, farmers used to drown coloured ones as they were thought to be recessive genes, therefore weak dogs etc. There is nothing wrong with them. Act structure etc all the same. Yes I know all dog species are hybrids anyway, just making a little point.

"If" this yellow is a genetic throw back etc, then science says lets play around with it, not kill it. :roll:
Why has there been a black thrown?
What happens if we breed back to normal yellows?......

Would you breed from pale yellow fish because they were different?

No. This is a different kettle of fish, if it is a genetic throwback, that is different when compared to a lesser trait, ie; pale colour.

Frenchy

Thats not true.

I dont think the black fish should be culled - i think its pretty exciting and cant wait to see it. Like Steve, I wouldnt mind buying it!

Just to throw a little extra into this debate - how about when two white people have a black baby as sometimes, albeit rarely, happens?

[Scat]

Lets see some pics

Craig

[alec]

Should we cull albinos while we are at it Terry? Oh hang on you have down that. Don't even know why or what the point is. It is all part of nature.
I mean really, how can we make calls like culling someones fish, that we haven't even seen.

if your argument is that 'it is all part of nature'
these things do happen in the wild
and in nature this fish would be likely to be eaten or killed
so if we are trying to recereate nature this fish would be culled anyway
not saying you shoould cull it if you want to keep it in a display tank and not breed it

[Fox]

Very interesting thread, I'm a little intrigued to see the pics.

Cheers
Az

[Terry]

Steve
I don't know about Andreas line breeding, what's an orange lab? Do you have a latin name?
Line breeding is ok. If you get the best Electric yellows available and line breed with them you might produce good quality fish with a bright yellow body and black dorsal fin. If you throw in a black electric yellow you will reduce the best available to rubbish. Sell the ones that look most like electric yellows to the LFS and you reduce all electric yellows to rubbish.

A. cacatouides are one of the most colourful of the dwarf cichlids, we don't need white ones with red eyes.

Does anybody here remember what real Aulonacara look like or have you seen a real Pterophyllum scalare.

Cheers Terry

[Fish Antics]

This debate on Hybrids and line breeding regularly comes up, which is not a bad thing. It always causes passionate views on both sides.
The hybrid is a bad situation, I think the majority of people will agree. Line breeding has is supporters and critics also. To "improve"a species by breeding withing the same species to improve a particular aspect is now common place, whether it be colour or finnage. Each person will have their own view.
The danger is that we may not necessarily know what we are doing. The problem with Hybrids is that they throw back to the original species. For example flowerhorns were popular and commanded a high price, however only the ones with symbols on their sides were wanted the rest often look and are therefore sold as Trimac's, one of the original species. You could breed that fish for years with a normal Trimac, sell the fry for years without a problem. Then one day someone gets an unusual looking trimac that has a lot more colour and decides to "linebreed" it.
You see the problem.
The same debate came with the "orange" electric yellows. There has been a lot of people internationally who have had these come up. Search through the forums and you will find a lot of examples. In a number of these cases later down the track a red zebra fry suddenly appears in some of the fry. To "improve" the yellow colouration someone decided to hybrid it with a red zebra.
Another example I came across and used in my talk on this issue a few months ago was the "white night" electric blue. An leading american breeder breed these and sold on thousands of fry before one day an Auloncara fry appeared in the batch.

This is why when we get an unusual throw up it is quite often a throw back to something that happened in the past.

Just be careful,thats all i am saying. I would not necessarily kill it. I would grow it up to see what it turns out like. But I would not breed it and sell fry. Infact Personally I would not sell any fry from those parents.

When breeding we should cull any fry that fall below the highest quality. This maintains a strong genitic line in those fish we have available.

Tony

[johnnie7au]

Although not related to cichlids, the question relating to the status of White German Shepherd dogs may be of interest to members regarding genetics and the non-recognition in Australia by the Australian National Kennel Council of White German Shepherds.

Right or wrong it is interesting material and may have some bearing on this debate regarding breeding of hybrids and "mutations".

It is worth pointing out that recessive genes are NOT necessarily unhealthy or bad. (O type blood is a recessive trait despite two co-dominant (Equally dominant) A and B versions of the gene.)

Type O is the blood group of 40 % of the current Australian Population.

Recessive genes for human diseases are numerous, but also there are probably as many human diseases that are carried on dominant genes. Recessiveness and Dominance only refers to the type of inheritance and whether one gene masks the effect of another.

Also the argument that Black electric yellow would be naturally culled in the wild, yes possibly, but if the evvironment and selection pressures dictated that there were an advantage in the population of being black in a specific area, then the population of the blacks would increase in that particular locailty and the yellows would be culled in that proximity. If the blacks and yellows were then separated, so that interbreeding could not occur (sometimes this happens naturally, via mating behaviour, cortship calls, dances, etc. etc) and this developed to a stage whereby the two lines would not naturally breed together, then this is seen as one of the factors by which speciation and evolution is driven.

Imagine a popuation of frogs ..., they expand their territory, ( a group go over the hill maybe?)

Frog language develops and changes in each population.

If the croak is incorrect, cos the frogs migrated, and a sample of each different group, ( the go-ers and the stayers ) were then put back together after several generations, artificially, then the language of Luuuve has been lost. They cannot communicate the croak of Luuve and therefore the Frogs from the slightly different populations will not mate cos they do not recognise the mating call of their relatives.

This is one argument for speciation.

Hope this helps.

Here is the link about White German Shepherds.

http://www.wgsdcv.org.au/

[tangycichlids]

Very well written Johnnie.

Just a note, albinos do survive in the wild. Very rare yes. But the odd few do survive. What we are talking about, is still a natural occurance. Therefore does that make it wrong for zoo's to keep albino tigers etc?

I don't know about Andreas line breeding, what's an orange lab? Do you have a latin name?

Labidochromis caeruleus
Line breeding electric yellows for the orange colour is what I believe is happening. A well known breeder here on the Glod Coast does this too. They are an orange colour & keep the orange colour. No zebra mix either. This breeder will tell you they are more gold, everyone else will tell you they are orange.
These sell very well in lfs too. I have to admit they are very clean, look nice, Doug has spent a long time doing this with his yellows. But, do you think that is right? They are line breeding something that is taking it away from what those look like in the lake.

If you throw in a black electric yellow you will reduce the best available to rubbish.

That was my point in the previous post Terry. We don't know what will happen with this fish bred back with others. I am all for the controlled science experiment & see what happens. Won't hurt anyone now will it? :roll:

Antics, look at this for an example.
A lfs here imported a heap of these as orange peacocks.


He placed pictures up months ago. Most said hybrid, most thought, Electric Yellow cross Red Zeb. Very common in the North America, unfortunately too. I went into one of his stores a few weeks ago. These fish are being sold as Tropheops. :x

Frenchy

[Kimbo]

Mr Seby was breeding the "orange labs" a while ago the ones that had no black on the fins, i thought everyone came to the conclusion that they were a hybrid of sorts? Thats what i was told as i had got a female from Andrea that i was going to work on breeding with the regular electric yellows, however i was told to remove it from my breeding group..

[Matthew]

hmmm

Simply sounds like a recessive gene to me.
Same as for Albinoism.
It does happen, and will continue to happen.


Keep it I say.

[Tucunare]

the orange labs as far as i know were electric yellows, craig can answer this alot better as he has em now.
i guess folks its diffrent courses for different horses, i mean hey ive seen white silver aros be sold for $300,000.00, gordon had an albino QLD lungfish for $100,000 which was sold, i personally love flowerhorns, parrot cichlids, batman rays and other weird stuff causeim not into the purity of the hobby im into what is pleasing to my eye and i find interesting. i will say however im in no way into things like tattooing fish, injecting them, amputating tails or any other cruelty issues, but i figure if they come out like that then hey "right to life" argument.
And i still recon good on you kyol

[johnnie7au]

Being the Perth Cichlid society, many members will be familiar with the wild Aussie Budgie. A green small bird.

Compare the wild variety with the many various types of "domestic" Budgie (mutations), that are evident due to the hard work of European budgie fanciers and breeders, who worked hard to selectively breed unusual lines by taking advantage of the occassional mutant. These birds are still valued!

Similar regards pigeons and doves. Dogs and Cats.

Koi and Goldfish breeders have done the same.

No way would some of those birds, cats and dogs or fish survive in the wild.

Farmers have selectively bred stock for one purpose or another for eons.

In fact the varieties of wheat, rice and maize we eat nowadays are genetically so far removed from the original wild type they would not survive many generations in the wild.

(I am not thinking of genetically engineered varieties of canola, rice, wheat or equivalents.) Just plain old selective breeding!

Another point ...

Dingoes ... it is very difficult to find anywhere in Australia where a fairly pure wild dingo bloodline exists. :cry: :cry: They have interbred with feral domestic dogs. I think the same thing has happened with the American Cyote. :cry:

A great question, great discussion and excellent points raised by all! 8) 8)

I have no idea what the answer is!

[skittles]

Hey guys ive seen this fish in person it is very fascinating
I would definatly keep him

[monobono]

Cheers Steve


Pics added on first page people

[Scat]

Hi Guys

I have the orange labs from Andrea that i purchased quite some time ago.
I was assured from Andrea that these were in no way hybrids of any sort or form as im sure she wouldnt have indulged the the hybrid issue herself.

Im currently line breeding electric yellows for increased colour and a better darker black finnage.

Currently I have 1 very deep golden yellow male lab ands 1 deep orange male lab.

I havent started breeding the really orange lab yet as hes still growing out, but the deep golden male i have bred extensively with excellent results,this being i have a number of deep yellow electric yellow juvies which will start showing up shortly( at the pcs first )

As Tony said in his post about selection im only keeping and continuing the very best of my stock and will be mixing F1 females into the bloodline down the track.

This is a long process with results taking months and months, ive only been line breeding for around 5 months.

Sorry if ive gone off track a bit but,yes i am line breeding my yellows and line breeding to improve the quality of the electric yellows that are currently around rather than degrade the yellows any further.

Craig

[benckie]

you on to it ! we all should do that im amazed what people actualy use as breeding stock, i will slap the next person who says its ok to breed brothers and sister and buy groups of fry of one person and grow them up then breed them and then sell the fry for three bucks a pop wtf, then the next bloke buys that group and grows them up and sells their fry and so on

[Noddy65]

This is still possibly a disease melanism and not necessarily an inheritable characteristic. If it is disease (and I dont mean a diseae that can be passed on to other fish) then there is nothing wrong with the parents.

Dont condem the parents too soon until the fish grows on (if it survives).
If it is a disease colouration then there may be other things wrong with it as well and it may not survive.

Mike

[johnnie7au]

Regards crossing between closely related ...

For someone who is interested in developing a "domestic" or "pet" or "Fancy" phenotype the idea of crossing an animal with parents, brothers or sisters or grandparents to enhance a desired characteristic is common. Selecting for a particular trait or characteristic in this way has been done for ages. Humans have been doing back crosses with plants and animals for centuries.

Whether the resultant animal is "better" is a matter of opinion, and context is important.

(Example .. flat faced dog breeds such as the Pug, or Bulldog, ... bred these days for apearance maybe , but these animls have big health probs regards breathing!)

Also consider that any such "desirable" crosses (whatever the characteristic) often enhances the likelihood of any undesirable traits that can be carried on in the genetics in general along with the desired trait. Especially in regards those genes that are in close proximity to the gene locus of the characteristic that the breeder is trying to exploit.

For example, albinism in Humans is often accompanied by eye problems such as squints... this is because the gene for squint is located very close to the locus of the gene for albninism and is often inherited at the same time.



If it were my fish and I had the time and resources I would try to selectively breed from it to enhance the "black" and see where it takes me. 8)

However ... I would not sell the babies to anyone until such time as I could have captured a good stock of "recognised" pure breeding specimens acknowledged as a totally new variety by the power that be (Who ever they are?) .

(If you happened on a very cool mutation why would you allow anyone else the chance to experiment with those potentially valuable genes?)

(I hope this makes sense and hope it helps!) :oops: :wink: