117 replies to this topic

[Fingers]

Yes, you are right. I was a bit presumptuous when I said "fella" it could be a lady fish. :oops:

[Mr_docfish]

Why has nobody bought up the fact that there are a lot of yellows out there that have very little or no black in them?! I mean they are basically all yellow with maybe a hint of black in the dorsal. I have not heard anybody claim that they are line bred, throwback, mutant yellows that should be removed from sight, on the contrary, I know of people who are actively looking for yellows with as little black as possible! Just because he is black, does not make him any less a fish than his brothers or sisters.....are we racist?

Sorry, just stirring the pot a little with a small observation. IMO blackie should be given a chance to grow and if it is indeed an EY, there should be an investigation into the EY genes and how they came to be in the lake, and what is the closest relative and so on. In science, this is called a breakthrough in genetic studies, it can give us insight into the relationships between similar species and help in determining the evolutionary route of many species in the lakes etc.......

heavy stuff this...

doc

[monobono]

Very interesting points there Doc.

A recent observation over the fish is as follows:

"Blackie" is still only about 2-3cm compared to his brothers and sisters at 4-5-6cm.

He has no eyes.

He is smokey black.

Thats about all that has changed.

I will get some new pics when I feel like it lol.

[Mr_docfish]

Some one once asked me "how do you know when a fish is blind?" the answer is 'they are wearing their pyjamas'. This means that they don't know whether it is day or night, so they put on their night time colours (most fish darken their colours to blend in with the surrounding darkness so they wont get seen and eaten in their sleep).
It seems your blind Blackie is just a normal EY that is in perpetual darkness and therefore showing its night time dress 24/7, which in its case, is accentuated because it has never turned on its normal colours.
It would be great to see another photo of it to see if there are any other abnormalities. It is still intriguing as to why it happened and would be worrying if it happens again to the same pair.

Doc

[monobono]

Very interesting doc

I tried taking some pics with the mobile phone but all you could see was a black blur so I will need to wait for my good digital camera which I can't promise will be soon

[tywonreef]

I would agree with noddy65, this is most likely a nerve problem. We have had a number of fish over the years that have turned 1/4 or even exactly half black due to a problem in the nervous system. This is what controls the colour. If the fish has not developed the correct 'hookups' of nerves in the early stages of development, then it will not be able to control it's colour. An excellent source of info on this subject & other colour info is in fish & their behaviour by tetra press, a great read. The cover of the handbook of fish diseases also has a photo of a fish with the front 1/4 of the face completely black, this is due to a thyroid tumor applying pressure to the nerves. I believe that when this is a genetic problem it can continue through the line, this is where we get many of the 'tuxedo' varieties of fish. Whether this is good or bad will remain a matter of opinion.

[Scat]

This is a lithobate that ive bred.



Even as a 1cm baby i noticed he had a black eye and now as you can see it has developed into this, so i assume from what you guys are saying that this is a nerve problem then?
Would like to see a updated pic of this black e/yellow myself

Cheers
Craig

[Fingers]

I love this topic. It seems to touch a deep nerve. Can someone in perth offer to take the pics with a digital camera.
I don't even have e/yellows, but it has got me intrigued. I do have frontosa and every so often I get one that has lines that are merged.

To kill or not to kill that is the question.

I keep them.

[Mr_docfish]

Very interesting points there Doc.

A recent observation over the fish is as follows:

"Blackie" is still only about 2-3cm compared to his brothers and sisters at 4-5-6cm.

He has no eyes.

He is smokey black.
...

In my book, blackie is not affected by nerve damage, just blindness (he has no eyes).
The lithobates from Scat is for sure.
No need for 'culling' unless you feel blackie may be suffering due to the blindness, also, the lithobates wont pass on the nerve damage to its offspring, so it too should live to breed one day.

doc

[tommo]

atleast you have proof i reckon you wait till its older you will be able to tell wat colour it is easier and the breed and i must say that is awsome

[dazzabozza]

Lil blackie still alive??

[cichlid4lyf]

Lil blackie still alive??

if it is post up some pics!!!

phillip

[monobono]

Sorry lads, lil' blackie is gone.

[kevy73]

That is such a shame - would have loved to have seen some pics!

[daci]

such a waste of time! 6 pages still can't see the bloody pic of the blackie

[Meghan]

This certainly seems to be a hot topic.
In my opinion (which is based more on what I know about genetics than fishkeeping, because I haven't kept fish for nearly long enough to say much about that and I'm also not commenting on anyone's actions in this forum or anything, just putting forward my conversational opinion ), I think that while it might seem cruel, if people don't have the room for a fish that they have bred which doesn't follow the usual phenotype of the species/breed, (that is, if they don't have the room to keep the fish for it's entire life in their own care, or if they aren't able to pass it on to someone who they know won't breed it) it should probably be culled or used as food. It's better for the fish species as a whole, and for the people who keep them as a hobby, if not for the unfortunate individual.

Basically this is because of inbreeding. As I understand it, there is a limited stock of most of the African cichlids, because it is expensive and tricky to import living animals from so far away. So, even if we have hundreds of thousands of individuals of the species in Australia at the moment, we really only have a very limited gene pool (because the vast majority of what exists here will already be several generations inbred from a much smaller number of wild caught, f1 or f2 fish), and sooner or later that will cause problems in the species. What if in the future, due to some catastrophy the wild population of (for the sake of continuity,) Electric Yellows were wiped out, and all that was left was the fish that people kept in their aquariums?
Then people would probably want to find all the F1s and F2s that they could and make sure that breeding was carefully regulated, and if the species phenotype was already changed by selective breeding the 'wild' markings would probably be forever lost.
Hm, I'm not expressing this very well.

Someone used the example of White Tigers. They are an interesting case. Yes, it is possible for white tigers to exist in the wild, and yes, they are very beautiful. However. Somewhat foolishly (considering they're biologists and geneticists and should know better), the entire captive population of White Tigers (when last I read up on this - about 3 years ago ) comes from a pool of about 3 wild individuals. This incredibly limited gene pool and selective breeding for an unusual rather than common phenotype has resulted in a great many terribly disfigured tigers. Obviously you don't see those in zoos, but there are many cases of white tigers with cleft palate, underdeveloped paws, claws and bone problems, to name a few. Apparently the birth ratio of deformed tigers compared to physically fit white tigers is something like 3 out of 5. As I said, I read this in a journal quite some time ago so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. This has been over a period of I think nearly 150 years, so obviously it has taken a long time.

But my point is, when you have a relatively limited population of something, it's irresponsible to start breeding for a recessive trait without (constantly) introducing new bloodlines, which obviously inhibits your ability to get that desired phenotype. Because eventually you will end up with genetic defects, and this seems to be unavoidable.

On the topic of dog breeds, I think you have a lot more biodiversity, or at least a lot more potential for biodiversity, with dogs, because they are much easier to transport (as far as I know). You can buy a prize dog or... female dog (I didn't use the other term because I don't know if it counts as swearing here) and import it from the US or Europe with very minimal worry over the dog's survival. In fact, it is commonly done (though it is hideously expensive) So breeding for new colour traits (like in Fox Terriers, you have the original black and white colour variety, or the tan and white, or tri colour.) without having to worry about limiting the gene pool.

The other thing with dogs and cats is that breeders who have puppies or kittens with undesirable traits do (after a manner of speaking) cull them - that is, the pup is sold under the non-negotiable circumstance that it be de-sexed. This keeps undesirable traits (like underbite, which my fox terrier has and was sold to us on that very condition) from 'polluting' the breed. Obviously this can't be done with fish, and once a fish is out of your hands you have no control over what happens to it.

So, while I probably have gone on for far too long and made little sense, I think that because of difficulties with ensuring biodiversity and the nature of fishkeeping, unusual phenotypes have to be removed from the gene pool. Of course it'd be pretty interesting to see what would happen if you bred unusual colourations together, but then you'd be left with hundreds of fry that you couldn't responsibly breed or sell. :S I dunno, I prefer natural looking fish anyway.

(and yeah, in some cases, like with dogs, cross breeding can actually be beneficial - German Shepherds crossed with... I dunno, Labradors, probably won't have hip problems as they get older, but the result is still not a German Shepherd and could never be sold as one, and you also wouldn't be able to breed that dog with a purebred of either breed because no breeders would let your dog near theirs, and without papers nobody will just shell out ~$800 on your word alone.
At least for me, as a newbie to fishkeeping, I can't tell if I'm buying 'the real deal' or a hybrid or variation, and there's not really any way of checking a fish's pedigree, as it were, so I guess that means that we have to be even more diligent with breeding fish 'for the sake of the hobby'.)

Stopping now!

[Cawdor]

You can buy a prize dog or... female dog (I didn't use the other term because I don't know if it counts as swearing here)

The term "bitch" when describing a female dog should be perfectly fine as this is the correct terminology (as you obviously know). Only when this term is used in a derogatory sense will the mods have a problem with it.
Nice post btw

[Fox]

Just to get this started again.....

I stripped a female Labidochromis caeruleus the other day and this what I have found.

CLICK HERE