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Geophagus Sp. "tapajos" 'orange Head' Vs G. Sp. "araguaia" 'orange Head" Identification/discussion/research Project


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#41 LC60

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 01:06 AM

QUOTE (Ronny @ Apr 14 2009, 09:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Count me in Laz biggrin.gif

I may not be a boffan on the species but I can contribute what I can with my fish biggrin.gif

Luckily, I have a decent number of juvies, which I've had since they were fry wink.gif

And I doubt anyone would rather you pipe down and disappear,
your interest and thirst for knowledge has inspired me to do the same.


Hey Ronnie,

Great to see you here mate, thanks for your support. I'm confident that there will be heaps you can contribute, you've already identified some interesting pit digging behaviour and I'm interested to see what you find out about that.

Cjeers
Laz

#42 LC60

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 01:27 AM

QUOTE (dom @ Apr 14 2009, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
larry keep up the good work .its people like you that are good for the hobby ,you are one of few who actually do this for the love of the hobby ..........not just about money you have taught me a thing or three about geos that i never knew before ...thank you . ill be in any project and you have my support on what you are doing .regards dom ...hey laz could it be posible that they are both the same fish and that they have been cross bred along the lines somwhere and some one playing doctor jeckl and mr hyde ....tammpered withj the species i mean . let me know what you think .i strongly believe this to be true ....regards dom


Hey Dom, thanks for you support, it's great to see you here, you're a good mate.

Dom owns a very nice pair of F1 "Orange Heads", as well as the male of the breeding pair featured in my thread on orange head behaviour: http://www.perthcich...showtopic=24184, Good news Dom, our breeding pair hatched the fry last night, I've seen the fry and they are tiny but the parents are doing a great job so far, they also appear to be a lot more at ease in this tank without tankmates. I haven't cought up with the pics yet but I'm working on it mate. Fingers crossed smile.gif Dom, I think that's a an important question, and we should look into any possibility of variant crossing. I'll come back to this point.

Cheers
Laz

#43 LC60

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 01:44 AM

QUOTE (ozarowana @ Apr 14 2009, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Characteristics I have yet to disprove are:
1. The head colour of the Tapajos variant is almost always more an orange colour. This can change to red but is usually orange. The Araguaia variant seems to never be an orange colour and seems to be more a red colour. The first pic shows this well.


Hi Chuongy, thanks for getting involved in this, your input is always valued.

The head colouration of my "Araguaia" are consistent with your statement in 1. above, the head colouration is a darker red colour as opposed to the more orange of the "Tapajos" that I have. I'll have a good look at my other two breeding pairs of "Araguaia" tomorrow as well, just to confirm.

The head colouration of 3 of my 5 tapas is consistent with your statement here, a bright orange colour, (I'll find a suitable pic to put here to demonstrate). When you say that the orange head colouration of a male 'Tapajos' is usually orange but can change to red, do you mean as a fish ages or according to mood?

QUOTE
2. The solid coloured stripe between the dorsal and the caudal fin. The Tapajos variant shows this when head colour is present and the intensity of stripe is linked to how much colour is present on the head. I've never seen this stripe in the "Araguaia" variant, even in males showing full head colour. There is a bit of colour but it is only a very minute amount on each scale and doesn't make a solid stripe.


Regarding the solid coloured stripe between the dorsal and caudal fin: I'll try to get a pic of this to confirm.

QUOTE
Also... The operculum colour in individuals of the Tapajos variant seems to be restricted to males and only a small number of males show this (possibly related to age). Therefore it's not a very easy characteristic to use for IDing.


Your statement here that only male Tapas show the orange colour on the operculum has me a bit puzzled. I'd like to look into this more before commenting.

One pretty significant point that Ozarowana's input highlights is that identifying the variant according to colouration as in pic 1, well it looks like it might not be quite as simple as that.

Chuongy, can you tell me if you know of any reliable way to differentiate between 'Araguaia' and 'Tapajos' variants in fish that are not showing any orange or red colouration on the head?

Cheers
Larry

#44 LC60

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 04:46 PM

QUOTE (Poncho @ Apr 15 2009, 01:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Great thread Larry.

I'm really keen to be involved in any type of research or experiment with these fish - they are becoming a firm favourite of mine. There is only so much one hobbyist can do in this regard considering limitations such as tank space, so it's a great idea to start some kind of collaborative effort amongst interested keepers of orange heads.


Hi Poncho,

It's great that you want to be involved mate, the contribution you have already made is much appreciated biggrin.gif and I'm looking forward to working on this with you and learning from you as well. The most important thing I see here is that we are all learning and we have only just begun and look at all the information and interest we have generated together (by that I mean everyone who has contributed by making a post on here). I guess the thing this proves is that there are are lot of us hobbyist/breeders out there who have a lot of knowledge, not just from the available literature but also from personal experience, and I invite anyone who keeps orange heads of whichever variant (I have seen some posts o/s from people with 'Tapajos 11'?, It would be good to hear from them as well).

QUOTE
I've got 40 or 50 odd juvies growing up now from my stock and I plan on adding around 12 of them back into my colony of 7. I'm keen to see how the adults will react with sub-adults. Terry pointed out to me a very interesting thing with Uaru which was, the sub-adults will revert back to juvenile patterns when food is available so that the adult fish will allow them to feed in peace and not shoo them away. I've got 10 of the suckers and have seen this for myself - it's pretty cool! In the tank my orange heads can't defend free swimming fry from the other hungry fish, so I miss out on seeing extended parental care but I can reintroduce sub-adults and see how the original group takes it. Ideally I would like to add fish from someone elses stock but with the whole ID thing I'm too worried about crossing varients to go down that path.


Awesome biggrin.gif, this one will be really interesting, I'm keen to watch your progress on this mate, and if in any way I can help just give me a call smile.gif .
I'll send you a pm and we can look at the origin of your fish and type, and I'm confident that we could find a suitable source for a mate and we can look into the origin of potential candidates so that you maximise you chances of getting a fresh bloodline. So let's not let the whole id dilemma slow us down, we just proceed with caution. It's all good.

(Also, I'll find a link to a posting by a guy who keeps colonies of S. leucosticta in large outdoor ponds, very interesting read re social/family/community structure and behaviour)

Hey, very interesting info on uaru, I have have 5 uaru at 4-5 cm I really like these fish too, thanks for this info.

QUOTE
Speaking of ID - Larry you've convinced me to get off my butt and look deeper into it and I'll be posting up some (hopefully) pointy questions soon to critique people's identification on the location of their fish. I'll be asking the questions not to try and prove anyone wrong but rather to clear any doubts in my mind and hopefully the minds of other people new to orange heads as to why one fish is tapajos and the other araguaia. I don't want to undermine or seem ungrateful for the efforts of people like ozarowana, japes (and yourself?) in trying to provide a Geo ID resource for the aquarium hobby in Australia - that work is fantastic and deserves the support of all geo fanatics in Aus!


Excellent, and yes very good point, none of this is being done to discredit, show up, or disprove anyone's prior work, the purpose of this project is to ADD to the body of information that is already out there, with respect for the efforts of the likes of Weidner, and other authour/research/hobbyist/breeders.

Also, thanks Poncho for playing along with that and playing the role that you adopted, I enjoyed sparring with you etc, you played the role so well and really made it interesting and kept me on my toes. This also led on to this current thread/Research Project. Looking at the list of all of us who are participating, is ...well it's kind of overwhelming, I know there is a high standard of quality out there just among people I know, there must be other sources and bloodlines out there, too, there is another guy over east that I have chatted to, and he has a colony of 20 of the' Tapajos' variant pictured above, I'll invite him along, he has some interesting ideas and information on these fish too.

the way i see this proceeding is:

at the last posting here I am going to make a Summary Point, where I/we review all the information that we have gathered to date and summarise all relevant points identified and all questions that need to be answered as well as any that have been answered or any new information added. This will be slow but that's ok, in the meantime all of use can maybe choose specific lines of enquiry/research/observation/experimentation..... and keep posting your findings/ideas//questions etc. [


QUOTE
However, to start with, Larry - can you list the reasons why you have ID'd the fish in your first post as either tapajos or araguaia. Is it solely based on the redness or coverage of red on the head between the two fish? (seems to be the main argument used) There may be other explanations for these differences that don't necessarily mean that the fish are from seperate locations. I mentioned in the other thread that diet, water parameters, condition of the fish, mood of the fish are all things that influence colour intensity in cichlids. Another factor could be line breeding and you mention age as well. Chuong mentions in his post that ID'ing using this characteristic is problematic also due to gender.

The experience with my fish - I have not seen the full operculum coloured up before (araguaia)
- I see the head as being orange in colour most of the time but can intensify to red (tapajos) - of course this is very subjective and what I call orange others may swear is red
- When red the colour is restricted to areas around the lips and on the crown of the head only (not sure if this means anything)
- the colour and intensity is very much related to the mood of the fish and can change momentarily - how can someone ask an experienced keeper to ID their fish based on this characteristic when they are providing one photo at one particular point in time.

Some of these doubts can easily be ruled out. Provide details of age of the two different fish pictured, have they been kept in the same tank for long? have they been raised on the same foods? What sex are they?
Too often comparisons are made on forums between two different photos from two different people with no other information other than the visual. The assumption is made that it is lineage at play rather than some of the other factors I have mentioned. People keeping both suspected types are in a much better position to rule some of these things out and hopefully can provide some input here with regards to this.

PS - Larry, can you send me the link to your blog?


Hi Poncho,
Here is the link to my blog: http://larry.meinvhex.org/ there are only 2 translated articles on there atm, but more are in progress, the one that is of major interest to us here is this one: The Geophagus of the southern clearwater influxes of the Amazon in Para; Brazilra; Brazilien - Jens Gottwald in Aquaristikfachmagazin Ausgabe 191, I am working on another by Albering: http://www.aquanet.d...g/bericht1.html, this article is the work referred to in Weidner's Eartheater book, I believe this is the first recorded account of these fish breeding, if I'm wrong please let me know, and direct me to any earlier works. A good place to start, and the pics at Albering's site raise another interesting problem for us regarding operculum coloration determining variant.....hmmmm........ biggrin.gif I'll finish this article asap!!!!
http://larry.meinvhex.org/

#45 LC60

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 11:12 PM

Summary So Far:

I'll start a summary of all the information raised so far here, including suggested research questions (remember this is interactive and we are now a research team, so any suggestions are always welcome).

RQ.1 How can we differentiate between Geophagus sp. "Tapajos" 'Orange Head' and G. sp. "Araguaia" 'Orange Head'?:

a) How do we define G. sp. "Tapajos" 'Orange Head'?
i) Colouration
ii) Other distinguishing characteristics

cool.gif How do we define G. sp. "Araguaia" 'Orange Head'?
i) Colouration
ii) Other distinguishing characteristics


c) What is the estimated number and ratio of variant/type of orange heads in this country?

d) Is it possible that one of the other variants of the orange head group in this country?

e) Is it possible that the variants of orange heads that we have here have been crossed?

Ok, there's a start, I'll keep coming back and adding and editing here as we go along, a bit further down the track I'll post another summary point, and do the same, these summaries will form the basis for for our finished document.

How's this sounding so far?

So from this point on the task for us is to research and discuss here until we get the answers to the research questions that we put up here.

Cheers
Laz




in the next post I will start a resource list, including all literature, relevant forums and websites.

The following post will list everyone who participates, listing any orange heads that they have and relevant information.

#46 LC60

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 11:30 PM

QUOTE (LC60 @ Apr 20 2009, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
in the next post I will start a resource list, including all literature, relevant forums and websites.


Literature: Forums & Websites:

Thomas Weidner; South American Eartheaters; 2000, Cichlid Press.


Forums & Websites:

url="http://eartheaters.qldaf.com/index.php?page=main"]http://eartheaters.qldaf.com/index.php?page=main[/url]

http://larry.meinvhex.org/


I'll keep adding to this.

Cheers
Laz

#47 LC60

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 12:40 AM

Orange Head Tapajos & Araguaia Research Crew - OH T&A RC smile.gif ,(just a suggestion hehe):

ID: LC60 / Laz / Amazoniac.

Fish:

5 x G. sp. "Tapajos/Arapiuns?" 'Orange Head'(from Source 3) Both the fish in the foreground and behind are females, note the orange gill operculum.


2x Breeding Pairs G. sp. "Tapajos/Arapiuns?" 'Red Head' (from Source 1) Male in pic below:


1X female G. sp. "Tapajos/Arapiuns?" 'Red Head' (from Source 2) this is the fish that has formed a pair bond with Dom's male.


1x female G. sp. "Tapajos/Arapiuns?" 'RedHead' (from Source 2)Note the higher number of rows of yellow scales, this fish has always looked this (colouration) and is fed the same diet and in the same water conditions as all my other orange heads and has been for over 12 months, I'm thinking that this may be an example of the variation of colouration within the variants that Heiko mentioned, what do you guys think?


1x Male G. sp. "Tapajos/Arapiuns?" 'Red Head' (from Source 2)

1x male G. sp. "Tapajos/Arapiuns?" 'Red Head (from Source 4)

50x G.. sp. "Arapiuns?" 'Orange Head' fry (currently 1.5cm and approx. 7 weeks old smile.gif


Research Projects:

Hi all, Here is a suggestion for the layout of our Research Project Team/Crew Member Sheet,. Everyone who is involved can start by duplicating this post for themselves and filling it in including your fish and a description of the research you are undertaking. Any and all suggestions welcome, and if anyone wants a hand, has a suggestion or wants to talk about it any part of the project send me a pm smile.gif

Cheers
Laz

Any suggestions welcome

#48 LC60

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 01:21 AM

Orange Head Tapajos & Araguaia Research Crew - OH T&A RC :

ID: LC60 / Laz / Amazoniac.
Hood
Dom
Ronnie
Poncho
Cicolid
Ozarowana
Japes

and anyone else who keeps these fish is invited to join in smile.gif

Cheers
Laz



#49 japes

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 02:12 PM

ID: Ryan aka japes

Fish: 9 x Geophagus sp. "Araguaia Orange Head"

I'm quite certain these fish are third generation from "Lungy's" original sp. "Araguaia Orange Head" pair - Original Pair > Offspring > My specimens. I will confirm the validity of this after I get in contact with the breeder today. [Edit: Confirmed and Trustworthy]

Cheers,
Ryan.

#50 LC60

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 07:41 PM

QUOTE (japes @ Apr 20 2009, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ID: Ryan aka japes

Fish: 9 x Geophagus sp. "Araguaia Orange Head"

I'm quite certain these fish are third generation from "Lungy's" original sp. "Araguaia Orange Head" pair - Original Pair > Offspring > My specimens. I will confirm the validity of this after I get in contact with the breeder today. [Edit: Confirmed and Trustworthy]

Cheers,
Ryan.


Excellent Ryan, I was hoping that someone with some of Lungy's fish would be involved, I've seen pics and believe these to be some of the best examples of this type. It would be good if (once you have verified that your fish are third generation from Lungy's breeding pair) Lungy's fish could be backtracked to the original source and what label they came here as.

And welcome mate smile.gif

#51 ozarowana

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 08:49 PM

QUOTE (LC60 @ Apr 19 2009, 03:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When you say that the orange head colouration of a male 'Tapajos' is usually orange but can change to red, do you mean as a fish ages or according to mood?

Not sure if this is linked to age or mood or both... I was told about this by fella and have seem fish i believe to be tapajos showing a red head.

QUOTE
Regarding the solid coloured stripe between the dorsal and caudal fin: I'll try to get a pic of this to confirm.

All of the pics Japes posted of the wild caughts from the US show this if you look closely (except the bucket shot which seems to make them lose the stripe the longer they are in it... I tried).

QUOTE
Your statement here that only male Tapas show the orange colour on the operculum has me a bit puzzled. I'd like to look into this more before commenting.

Seems not many fish show a definate orange/yellow operculum and the ones that do look to be male... just observations.

QUOTE
One pretty significant point that Ozarowana's input highlights is that identifying the variant according to colouration as in pic 1, well it looks like it might not be quite as simple as that.

Out of all the eartheaters, you probably picked the hardest two variants to try and sort out ohmy.gif

QUOTE
Chuongy, can you tell me if you know of any reliable way to differentiate between 'Araguaia' and 'Tapajos' variants in fish that are not showing any orange or red colouration on the head?

Grey sheen on the body of the Araguaia variant MIGHT be one... but may be linked to environment. So it's really hard if you don't know the true history of the fish you have or are getting.


#52 LC60

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 09:03 PM

Hi all,
I appreciate your patience, I'm still setting up all the ground work/framework etc, but everything is on track biggrin.gif and thanks again to all of you who are contributing to this, from beginning to end we are all co-authors here biggrin.gif , every one of us will be credited as co-authors of the finished product, and with the knowledge, experience, talent and ability (and enthusiasm?) among us, and of course: above all, our fish, I can't see how we could fail to produce an article/report/guide etc of the highest standard. I'm serious. Anyway, atm I'm busy with water changes, so feel free to add your thoughts, ideas, points of interest already raised, pics of your fish, your research plan, if you want some help just ask smile.gif As you can see, the way I work is on multiple fronts biggrin.gif while this may seem chaotic and random, I promise you that there is a method to my "madness" hehe, and above all, this project will be thorough and complete, all points raised will be investigated.

I'm just about to add the lates update pics to my "50 Tapas Project" see post # 4

Cheers
Laz

#53 japes

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:12 PM

QUOTE (LC60 @ Apr 20 2009, 09:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Excellent Ryan, I was hoping that someone with some of Lungy's fish would be involved, I've seen pics and believe these to be some of the best examples of this type. It would be good if (once you have verified that your fish are third generation from Lungy's breeding pair) Lungy's fish could be backtracked to the original source and what label they came here as.


These have been verified by the breeder I purchased them from and the previous owner of the pair. At this stage they're 5-7cm juveniles but they're growing up nice and quickly. Have been photologging their growth rates and have photographs on EartheatersAustralia (http://eartheaters.q...p?page=araguaia) - as you can see all of my photographs are dated. Jay's (IronMonkey) photographs are the parents - I will try and get new shots when I'm down visiting on the weekend.

#54 LC60

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:25 PM

QUOTE (ozarowana @ Apr 20 2009, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not sure if this is linked to age or mood or both... I was told about this by fella and have seem fish i believe to be tapajos showing a red head.

Great info, maybe we can look at this in the fish that we have between us, also, as this is a long range project, maybe we can document the change as it occurs, what do you think?

QUOTE
All of the pics Japes posted of the wild caughts from the US show this if you look closely (except the bucket shot which seems to make them lose the stripe the longer they are in it... I tried).

biggrin.gif Yes, I see, I'll try to get some shots of mine.

QUOTE
Seems not many fish show a definate orange/yellow operculum and the ones that do look to be male... just observations.

I have some pics of female "Tapajos" with yellow/orange operculum.

QUOTE
Out of all the eartheaters, you probably picked the hardest two variants to try and sort out ohmy.gif

Yeah I know but I love a challenge (or didn't you notice) biggrin.gif also I love these fish and really want to find the answers/learn about these guys

QUOTE
Grey sheen on the body of the Araguaia variant MIGHT be one... but may be linked to environment. So it's really hard if you don't know the true history of the fish you have or are getting.

Yes this is an important point, I have started using a simple number system for the original source of all the fish that we can identify this with. I would like to apply this to all the fish that are included in this study, as much as possible, so that we can identify the pure, correctly identified strains.

Thanks for your input Chuong, it's all coming together smile.gif

Cheers
Larry


#55 Heiko Bleher

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 08:04 PM

Hi guys,

this is Heiko Bleher and just back from another collecting trip and 7 seminars in Turkey.

I see this incredible long thread and also was asked to make some comments.

Now first of all I wanted to tell you all that there is a big error in locality for one of those mentione here. Please note for the sake of identification:

1. Geophagus sp. (or G. proximus variant, as explained in m book on page 269 and provisionally identified by S. O. Kullander) with a pink (or light orange) coloured head is from the Tapajós river - I collected it there myself and introduced the very first into the hobby.
2. Geophagus sp. (also classified at this time as G. proximus variant) with a almost red head (some times bright red, as shown with the specimen I collected in the Rio Arapiuns - an black water affluent of the Tapajós - and introduced as well is the ONLY second varinat known from the so called Geophagus sp. "Orange-Head".
And from the top one can see very well the difference of these two variants in my book on page 269 photo 5: the most left specimen is the one from the Arapiuns and the others from the Tapajós photographed after collecting in nature from the top.

There is NO Geophagus sp. Orange head "Araguaia" at all - no such Geophagus in that river (and I collected there as well extensively). It has been "classified" wrongly this location by some aquarists which do no read and everyone copies everyone.

And from the point of evolution and speciation it also does not make sense (besides the fact that I collected them and also since 1965 in the Araguaria), because the Araguaia is an Xingu afflunet and far away from the Tapajós. And the Arapiuns an Tapajós affluent and with black water (the Tapajós itself is clear, or gree water, as locals call it). And in addition black waters fishes have around the globe, the brightest colours..

There are small morphologic colour differences and you can see them from my book. And do not forget, there is a third variant in the Tapajós, but the latter although looks very similar in colour pattern and morphology, does not have the pink or orange head of the other one in that river.

I think you all should know this.

best regards

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com






#56 Poncho

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 08:40 PM

ID: Brett aka Poncho

Fish: 7 x Geophagus sp. "Araguaia Orange Head" (according to Heiko there is no such thing - arupuins then?) purchased from Den

40+ Geophagus (as above) juveniles - offspring from above fish

I'm keen to look deeper into social interactions between orange heads - amongst themselves and their different generations and amongst other species of fish. I'll have to look up the other species found in their locality once I can be as certain as possible what that location is.

Larry - can you elaborate on source 2, 3 etc.



#57 ozarowana

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 08:35 AM

Heiko,

Thankyou for your input into this subject. I have some questions for you.

In regards to the Rio Arapiuns and the Rio Tapajos variants:
When you collect from these areas, do all of the fish show bright orange/red colouring when they come from the Arapiuns or is it just some of them? When you catch this species do they school and are usually caught in numbers or are they caught singly. Hobbyists have noticed the redness on the head in one individual can go from almost nothing to bright red, depending on the environment, social status and mood. The catch locality for the Tapajos variant is Alter do Chao which is relatively close to the Arapiuns, so maybe the same fish/variant?

In regards to the Rio Araguaia variant (or lack of):
Do you know any possible reasoning behind why people have labelled fish this variant? Also when you say the Araguaia is an affluent of the Xingu do you mean Tocantins?
Just for interest according to Weidner "Distribution: Exact details are unknown, as the species has been imported only via the trade and more exact data have not been made available." Maybe a wholesaler has messed up?

QUOTE
And do not forget, there is a third variant in the Tapajós, but the latter although looks very similar in colour pattern and morphology, does not have the pink or orange head of the other one in that river.

Heiko is referring to G. sp. "Tapajos" / G. sp. "Tapajos II" and are ovophilous as opposed to larvophilous which the "orange head" types are. Their lateral bars are thicker too.


#58 LC60

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 11:33 PM

Hi Heiko,

Thanks for your input into this topic, for the excellent information you have provided and for clarifying the ID issue for us! I was prepared for the answer to be different to what I thought it was, but this has taken me completely by surprise smile.gif . I am amazed to learn that there is no Araguaia orange head.

For the purpose of clarification:

the fish on the left in Pic #1, in Post #1, at the start of this thread, could correctly be identified as G. sp. "Tapajos" "Orange/Red Head";

the fish on the right in pic #1 and in pic#2 could correctly be identified as G. sp. "Arapiuns" "Orange Head;

Is this correct?

I do have a few more questions if this is ok with you.

1. Another point of confusion here is the yellow/orange operculum that can be seen on the fish on the right in pic#1, Post#1. Does the orange head variant that you collected from the Tapajos ever show an orange or yellow operculum?...... or is it only specific to the Arapiuns variant.

2. Which variant do you believe is featured in the pics accompanying Jorg Albering's 1999 account: Ein neuer (?) Erdfresser Geophagus spec. "orange head"aus dem Rio Araguaia,? http://www.aquanet.d...g/bericht1.html . Albering identified these fish as G. sp. "Araguaia" "Orange Head" (which you have explained is incorrect), the thing that has confused me about these pics is that both the male and female have the orange operculum that I thought was specific with the fish you have identified as the Arapiuns variant.

3. Do you believe the Arapiuns and Tapajos variants of "orange Head" to be the same species? .....and if so, does this also include the xingu variant, or is the xingu variant likely to be the same species as the ovophilous Tapajos variant (without any orange or red head colouration, Tapajos II in some of the literature), or a different species altogether?

4. Many of the geos that have been imported into this country have been mislabeled. I have noticed that in europe and the US that G. sp. "Tapajos' (AKA Tapajos II) has started turning up in aquarist's tanks. I was wondering if these fish have been imported specifically into Germany or if it might be the case that these fish have just turned up accidentally in shipments of G. sp. "Tapajos" 'Orange Head'?

Thanks again and best regards
Larry

#59 Cicolid

Cicolid
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 29-April 06
  • Location: Bouvard, Mandurah WA

Posted 24 April 2009 - 08:47 AM

This topic has really taken off. I like it. I have some catching up to with all the posts.

Below are some photos of my Tapajos Orange Head which I bought from Midland.

Pic #1
Attached File  G.sp_Tapajos_OH_1.jpg   42.02KB   27 downloads

Pic #2
Attached File  G.sp_Tapajos_OH2.jpg   50.23KB   13 downloads

Pic #3
Attached File  G.sp_Tapajos_OH_3.jpg   50.31KB   11 downloads

Pic #4
Attached File  G.sp_Tapajos_OH4.jpg   48.5KB   20 downloads

Pic #5
Attached File  G.sp_Tapajos_OH_5.jpg   52.05KB   13 downloads

Pic #6
Attached File  G.sp_Tapajos_OH_6.jpg   42.02KB   16 downloads

I also have 8 from a Perth breeder which I bought as Tapajos OH, I've had them about 4 weeks and they are about 4 to 5cm. Will try to get some photos soon.

Col




#60 LC60

LC60
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 28-December 07
  • Location: Clarkson

Posted 24 April 2009 - 02:56 PM

QUOTE (Cicolid @ Apr 24 2009, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This topic has really taken off. I like it. I have some catching up to with all the posts.
Below are some photos of my Tapajos Orange Head which I bought from Midland......
......I also have 8 from a Perth breeder which I bought as Tapajos OH, I've had them about 4 weeks and they are about 4 to 5cm. Will try to get some photos soon.
Col


Hey Col,

Yes mate, it's fantastic how this is shaping up smile.gif . It's great to see that there are so many orange heads in perth from so many different sources, (I'll talk more about this when we all meet up), and it's great to see that you guys are keen to do something here. Those fish of yours are beautiful, I can't wait to see them when they've grown a bit more, they will be stunning, these fish look like one fish that I have, which looks to be a good example of the colour variations that occur within the variants, as Heiko mentioned. The fish in your pics look to have a lot more rows of yellow scales on the body than most orange heads I've seen, do your fish look like this one Col? This is one of mine from source 2, see post #48. I see that your fish show full orange colouration on the operculum too, these are already looking very nice.


Cheers
Laz




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