47 replies to this topic

[Den]

Hi All

Although I had paid to go to the Heiko talk I missed it due to unexpected family commitments, I was just wondering if anyone who was at the Heiko talk was able to help shed any light on the cloudy man made discus topic?

My questions are : did Heiko state wether the practice of making man made discus involved hybridisation of the different discus species and/or the cross breeding of different locality variants?

Did Heiko mention how many species of discus he believed existed?

Did Heiko mention how many species variants of discus he believed existed?

thanks

Cheers
Den

[fourdapostle]

Heiko did mention that with the water at its height in the wet, differernt strains did often intermingled there was a cross over and many bred, hence wild hybrids.
He never did get into that question if I can remember rightly...someone could correct me though...

[Warby]

This really is a hot topic for you isnt it Den

[ado]

I don't want to hijack your thread Den, but I think it's important that people realise that the whole species concept isn't really set in concrete, and is actually pretty hard to define.
A website that may be of interest to some.

So your never really going to get a 100% unanimous opinion on how many species there are of one type of fish. Particulary for complex species such as the Discus.
I realise your asking for Heiko's (respected) opinion...so your questions valid. I just wanted to point out that the issue is going to be a lot more complicated than we'd prefer it to be.


Cheers,
Ado

EDIT:
This may be of interest to some too:

"We discuss the bearings of our results on the current taxonomy of this group, and on the biological reality of the different forms, subspecies and species of Symphysodon concluding that we are probably observing a process of diversification, and therefore taxonomy will remain contentious."

Patterns of diversification in the discus fishes (Symphysodon spp. Cichlidae) of the Amazon basin
Izeni Pires Farias and Tomas Hrbek
Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution
2007

[CCA001]

From listening to him at his talk he did say as he goes firther itno the Amazon and parts were humans havent been yet he is still discovering new fish to this day.

As someone else has said Heiko did say that there is natural hybrids in the amazon due to the big floodings and different sections joining up together and the fish MEETING each other for a little jiggy jig for the first time

I am pretty sure someone recorded it to Den so you may be able to get a copy of it.

Sorry cant remember who recorded it tho Craig (Scat) may be able to help you on that one

HTH a little

[rwillox]

Ed (Sazabi) recorded it.

Ross

[Ronny]

I've spoken to Edward and am teeing up a time to get a copy from him as he has been very busy lately

[Fish Antics]

Hekio described 3 types of Discus: Symphysodon Discus, Symphysodon Aequifasciatus Aequifasciatus ,Symphysodon Aequifasciatus Haraldi. Each Type of discus are limited to specific areas by water parameters, eg White or black water and do not survive out of those areas. 99% of all discuss varients available to hobbiest are variations of Symphysodon Aequifasciatus Aequifasciatus as these have the most natural variations and are the most adaptable to water parrameters.
In the rainy season with flooding these discuss often meet and natural hybrids form, however these generally do not do well and dont survive when the river returns to the normal areas.

As mentioned the talk was recorded, we are waiting for him to finish his editing and it will be available from the library for all members.

Tony

[Den]

Thank everyone for the info:)

Hey Ronny when you get a copy of the vid can I please borrow it? maybe I can get my $10bucks worth after all.

Alot of discus fanciers throw the natural hybrid issue into the debate to try derail it, Malawi peacock and mbuna hybrids exist in the wild and aquarium societies dont support the creation of manmade hybrid peacocks and mbuna, so the same rules should apply to Discus.

This really is a hot topic for you isnt it Den

Dont mean this directly at you Warby but its funny because a person can ask questions about any fish but as soon as you start talking about discus and asking questions you get labelled as a troublemaker or antagonist? All I know is when I research breeder stock for manmade fish commercial breeders freely admit they hybridise discus to create strains and improve weak bloodlines, but when you get down to the amateur hobbiest they want to fight to the death that their man made fish are not hybrids!

I will get to the truth, so many myths out there, I have found that the discus hobby is a the place where you will find more myths and BS than in a voodoo book crammed up the backside of a cow's r soul.

Cheers
Den

[Warby]

Thank everyone for the info:)

Hey Ronny when you get a copy of the vid can I please borrow it? maybe I can get my $10bucks worth after all.

Alot of discus fanciers throw the natural hybrid issue into the debate to try derail it, Malawi peacock and mbuna hybrids exist in the wild and aquarium societies dont support the creation of manmade hybrid peacocks and mbuna, so the same rules should apply to Discus.


Dont mean this directly at you Warby but its funny because a person can ask questions about any fish but as soon as you start talking about discus and asking questions you get labelled as a troublemaker or antagonist? All I know is when I research breeder stock for manmade fish commercial breeders freely admit they hybridise discus to create strains and improve weak bloodlines, but when you get down to the amature hobbiest they want to fight to the death that their man made fish are not hybrids!

I will get to the truth, so many myths out there, I have found that the discus hobby is a the place where you will find more myths and BS than in a voodoo book crammed up the backside of a cow's r soul.

Cheers
Den

Apologies if I offended ya Den, didn't mean to imply that you were antagonising or attempting to cause trouble. It was simply an observation that this particular issue is one you seem very interested in as you've brought it up several times

-Dave

[Den]

No offence taken Dave, dont mean to sound too serious, I get defensive sometimes, probably because Ive copped so much heat for taking an interest in this topic.

Cheers
Den

[Poncho]

Malawi peacock and mbuna hybrids exist in the wild and aquarium societies dont support the creation of manmade hybrid peacocks and mbuna, so the same rules should apply to Discus.

Why?

[Den]

QUOTE (Den @ Sep 11 2009, 06:36 PM)
Malawi peacock and mbuna hybrids exist in the wild and aquarium societies dont support the creation of manmade hybrid peacocks and mbuna, so the same rules should apply to Discus.


Why?

Brett if you seriously want to make sense of the situation consider this:

Its same reason why you would not appreciate and the PCS policy is against someone who would try to cross these fish to make new forms:

Crossing species locality varients
Lepidiolamprologus kendalli (Kambwimba) x Lepidiolamprologus kendalli (Nkambae)
Cyphotilapia gibberosa (Kapampa) x Cyphotilapia gibberosa (Moba)
Tropheus moorii (Chaitika) x Tropheus moorii (Kasanga)

or

Creating interspecies hybrids
Lepidiolamprologus kendalli x Lepidiolamprologus elongatus
Tropheus duboisi x Tropheus moorii
Cyphotilapia frontosa (Kigoma) x Cyphotilapia gibberosa (Moba) (yay lets make 7 strip Moba's!)

Now take a look at the different discus species and the many natural locality varients of each discus species and compare them to the manmade discus and try to work out which man made discus are hybrids, crosses or line bred or mixure of all 3 breeding practices?

Natural forms
http://www.amazon-ex...E4nge/INDEX.htm
Manmade
http://www.sunrisetropicals.com/

[Sammi3Benny]

Is there any place from which to buy the WC Discus species in Australia? They're AMAZING! So much more appealing (to us) than the man made doobies!

Don't worry Den, I don't judge you for your Discus-holic status. The questions you've raised are very valid ones. I hope you can get to the truth, some way, some how!! My LFS guy, Herman, calls them all mutants. LOL.

sammi

[dazzabozza]

Hey Den

A relative comparison for you.... "Budgerigars". There's only one species. The wild form is green/yellow. Years of captive line-breeding has produced various colour variants and sizes. Could we not expect the same result with discus (without hybridisation between location variants) ??


Daz

[Den]

Hi Dazza

Of course that is possible but its not always the case, take for example one of the manmade staples "the Blue turquoise discus" internet sources indicate that many of these were originally developed in the United States by Jack Wattley from crossings of wild and tank raised blue and green discus.

I will let you conclude wether crossing blue and green discus contravenes PCS policy - if you tell me that its OK Im gonna start making and selling new man made strains of multi coloured Tropheus moorii and make a fortune!!!

Cheers
Den

[dazzabozza]

developed in the United States by Jack Wattley from crossings of wild and tank raised blue and green discus

That statement leaves a lot of unanswered questions.... what species were the wilds...? what species were the tank line-bred originally derived from.....?

Using my "budgie theory" it sounds like he crossed a big pretty multicoloured captive bred bird with a wild caught green/yellow bird. Same species.

Cmon Den you usually put far more effort into your research....


Daz

[Den]

Dazza OMG you are testing my patience doesnt seem you read the post just above your original one that I think clearly explains what you are questioning, I will partly repeat myself : so you are saying its OK to cross:

Tropheus moorii (Chaitika) x Tropheus moorii (Kasanga)

as these would still be Tropheus moorii....

[Fish Antics]

I understand your underlying argument, however Tropheus moorii (Chaitika) x Tropheus moorii (Kasanga) are locality morphs and should be maintained as such. According to Heiko; Symphysodon Aequifasciatus Aequifasciatus is highly variable even within the same area of water, and do not have specific locality morphs. It is therefore unrealistic to try and maintain them as such.

Crossing the 3 different species should be strongly discouraged however as mentioned many times before the majority of commercially available discus are the one species "Symphysodon Aequifasciatus Aequifasciatus" as this species is the only one that is adaptable enough for the general aquarium hobby and large scale breeding. Crossing the species does not according to Heiko “strengthen" the bloodline and the results do not do as well as the original, so would not be part of a viable breeding program.

An interesting part of his talk was the fact that all 3 species are located in areas along side each other by region but separated by water chemistry and don’t mix. You will find Symphysodon Discus in a black water pool along side Symphysodon Aequifasciatus Aequifasciatus in a white water stream.

[Heiko Bleher]

I understand your underlying argument, however Tropheus moorii (Chaitika) x Tropheus moorii (Kasanga) are locality morphs and should be maintained as such. According to Heiko; Symphysodon Aequifasciatus Aequifasciatus is highly variable even within the same area of water, and do not have specific locality morphs. It is therefore unrealistic to try and maintain them as such.

Crossing the 3 different species should be strongly discouraged however as mentioned many times before the majority of commercially available discus are the one species "Symphysodon Aequifasciatus Aequifasciatus" as this species is the only one that is adaptable enough for the general aquarium hobby and large scale breeding. Crossing the species does not according to Heiko “strengthen" the bloodline and the results do not do as well as the original, so would not be part of a viable breeding program.

An interesting part of his talk was the fact that all 3 species are located in areas along side each other by region but separated by water chemistry and don’t mix. You will find Symphysodon Discus in a black water pool along side Symphysodon Aequifasciatus Aequifasciatus in a white water stream.

ù

Hy guys,

this is Heiko Bleher and I just am a little amazed about what has been written here. But let me apologize first for answering so late, but I only returned today from Iran, collecting Iranocichla, the most easter living cichlid on Earth. It was a very successful and very hot (47.5°C in the shade) expedition.


I am amazed because some of you people came to tmy talk and I showed clearly that there are 3 species in nature:
1. Symphysodon discus Heckel, 1840, - the Heckel Discus
2. Symphysodon aequifasciatus pellegrin, 1940 - the Green Discus
3. Symphysodon haraldi Schultz, 1960, - the Brown or Blue Discus

I also sold many of my books which give everything in detail (better, I would say, it is not possible) about taxonomy (the entire chaptor 2).

The recent work of Hybrek et. al. (I talked also about that), is ONLY based on DNA and has no result whatsoever, no morphology, nor detail and many of its distribution is wrong, because they received most of their specimens from fishermen with false locality information, did not collect them self...

The only correct reference for the 3 species is our scientific Journal with the published paper on the 3 species (aqua, International Journal of Ichthyology volume 12(4)) and my book, Bleher's Discus Volume I.
And if anyone is interested in taxonomy and correct species (and genera, and family, and order) names, than there is ONLY one Website on the world-wide web reliable for that - for all fishes (and every 3 month updated), and that is the California Academy of Science. And the direct link to the species, synonyms, etc. is:
http://research.cala...fishcatmain.asp

I had also explained about the hybrids in short (extensive in my upcoming volume II, hopefully in our spring): about 90%plus of all hybrid/breeding species come ONLy from Symphysodon haraldi, that includes the so called Snake Skin, Solid colours, Turquoise, Striped, Ghost, Pigeon, white red, etc. Only the Red Spotted have wild Green bloo. Than you have also in breeding (but not so frequently founbd) the real hybrids, which are often in Asia confused with the Heckel Discus (but no one in Asia ever bred Heckel Discus to my knowledge) and are crosses between Heckel Discus and Brown or Blue Discus (S. discus x S. haraldi).
But normally these are not fertile Discus.

Best regards

always
Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com