137 replies to this topic

[Tucunare]

hi guys
firstly i think you all know where i stand on the hybrid issue, if not then so be it.
secondly most of you know i spen over 80hrs a week looking after fish tanks of all sorts.
what ive noticed.
firstly i have looked after a cichlid tank in midland now for about a year (cheers Az), this tank is in a commercial location, and the management of this business have bought all there pure bred fish from midland pet and aquarium. about 6 months ago about 100 fry appeared in the tank, these looked to be the babies of the two adult moori that were in the tank as the months went on they still looked like moori, little silver fish with a slight blue shimmer and two dots on there bodies. these babies are all around 8-10cm now and up untill a month ago youd swear black and blue they were pure strain moori. turns out there red empress x moori, nice little blue dolphin heads with a yellow/red body and heaps of markings on there fins.
heres what im trying to get at if these people had of decided to trade these fish back to midland or though myself a month after they were born, in everyones honest opinion they would have been labled moori and probably would have remained that way for 4 months after the fact or up untill now that the dominant ones are showing colour.
theres alot of difference of opinion on hybrids but i think we as the hobbiests are the minority when it comes to this.
in the last year ive dealt with 5 tanks that have had african hybrids in them all of which obivously have no knowledge of cichlids (hense why im there in the first place), 4 of these clients have sold fish back to shops they have bought them from, probably under the name of yellow stripey fish and got a few bucks each for them.
now lets assume that each of the 4 customers ive dealt with have sold 40 fish each (hybrids) and 40 of those died that still leaves 120 hybrids that have gone out into the perth area that are probably in 30 -40 different tanks, breeding within there hybrid sp and with other true strains. taken that into account thats only the people i deal with so how many more people do the same????? your guess is as good as mine.
i think the argument between hobbiests about keeping the strains pure is kind of a weak one that seems irrelevant when you consider the ammount of fish that are beeing traded around by the basic novis, intermediate fish keeper that doesnt care whats what, the proffessional that gets a kick out of something new and to all the others that arent involved in forums and clubs like this.
dont get me wrong here though i think its great that theres people passionate about trying to keep strains pure and i congratulate you on taking that view, but i think it a battle that cant be won from what ive seen from regular fish tanks outside of the hobby.
getting back to what i said up the top aswell there may also be some shops totally against selling hybrids that actually sell them through false/ uneducated identification of species ( like the Moori X's).
i guess more than anything its worth thinking about, do the 7 or 8 people who get involved in the hybrid arguments really matter in the grand ol scheme of things?, is the issue bigger than alot of you realise?, has it already gone to far?, how many people that dont speak up on here really care about what the end result of there fish breeding are?,
again it seems as hobbiest we want to kill each other over this issue, and i bet alot of people still think its contained within the hobby. consider that theres only about 12 decent shops in the metro area yet over 250 other outlets that sell fish, plus internet and printed media, theres alot of things going on out there that no one can controll
hope that kinda makes sence - tryin to watch the soccer and type at the same time
steve

[Den]

I have kept many malawis over the years and 2 very large malawi tanks, on average holding over 200 fish of at least 15-25 species per tank, spawing was going on almost around the clock, even when keeping many very similar species in my tanks together(for example I had 2 types of acei and 3 types of zebra and try types of fuelbourni) I dont ever recall seeing different species hybridising and out of thousands of fish bred out of those tanks I only ever seen one sus looking acei tanzania that had a zebra mouth shape.

The only thing I can put it down to is that I had very large tanks giving lots of space and I always ensured each male had numerous females of his own species, I know this is not fail safe but it worked for me over many years.
My old 10 Foot malawi tank setup:



We all know that Malawi hybrids are arguably our biggest hybrid problem in the hobby, simply because many amatures keep them, they can be very easily bred by anyone and they have the ability to interbreed. If the committee was serious about dealing with hybrids my feeling is that they would be more pro active about the wider issue instead of just blaming and dumping the entire hybrid issue on flowerhorn enthusiasts, which seems to be a very shallow sited approach.

Cheers
Den

[STEVEGREEN]

i know , how about we start a club to educate people about the dangers of hybrids!!!!!!

ohh no , that wont work .

its your relaxed attitude on the subject Steve that has allowed you to provide a service to a paying customer for the money , and not taking time to think of the hobby.

why , if you knew before the fact , would you allow the owner of the tank trade the fish into a shop when it is in a community tank with the chance of x-breeding ?

why not take the 2 minutes out of your time an explain the problem ??? oh thats right , to you there is no problem.

Gee Den , sure glad i didnt buy anything out of that tank of mixed lollies , but unlike most , i'll ask what tank mates the breeders were kept with i cannot believe the choice of fish you kept together in the 10 footer , did any forum members comment on your ridiculous mixture of fish when you first posted these pics.

unbelievable

cheers
Steve Green

[Sazabi]

Play nice guys....

[little swimmer]

I would like to think that the whole hobby isn't going to be stereotyped by four participants who cant even clean their own tanks.

[tranced]

i swear, im gonna turn this car around ...

[Barf]

i swear, im gonna turn this car around ...

I'm hearin ya

[Fox]

i swear, im gonna turn this car around ...

Nah they can get out and walk

[Warby]

Den, if you honestly think there was no hybridising going on in that tank then I think you're kidding yourself... Agree with your comments about the whole hybrid issue seemingly being focussed on flowerhorns and other "desirable" hybrids but can't believe you would show that tank and then say that because they had loads of space (200+ adult fish in a 9' or 10' tank though I wouldn't call that much space...) and plenty of females there was no hybridising simply because you didn't see it..

How on earth could you possibly know, with that many fish, that fish X with the mouthful is in fact the same one you saw getting jiggy with her male cohort the night before, and not the one that was busy getting jiggy with something else during the time when you weren't staring at the tank....

Silly example Den..

-Dave

[Warby]

Ohhh and Steve (green, not tucunare....) I hardly think it fair to condemn steve because his clients traded in hybrid fish without knowing the full circumstances: Did he know they were going to trade them beforehand? Did they ask his advice on the issue? Did they care about his advice? ... at the end of the day he has to put food in his mouth and his first priority needs to be making a living.

I know I have seen hybrids being sold in almost every PCS Sponsor store at one time or another, are you going to condemn them also?

...

[Cawdor]

If the committee was serious about dealing with hybrids my feeling is that they would be more pro active about the wider issue instead of just blaming and dumping the entire hybrid issue on flowerhorn enthusiasts, which seems to be a very shallow sited approach.

This sort of comment cannot go unanswered, though it may have been deliberately worded like that, who knows.

Anyway:
on the one hand we are criticised because of our stance against hybrids, yet on the other hand you criticise us for not being pro-active enough? In just about every thread on the issue we comment on why hybridisation is bad and why we do not allow hybrids to be promoted. I have been on this site for 5 years and have known this stance for just as long.

The second part of your statement is completely false. You are the one who brought up flowerhorns and created (much to your delight I'm sure) a huge fuss. The committee's position has not changed on this issue since I joined the site (apart from actually trying a more relaxed moderation approach, which was subsequently abused) and to say that the committee is "blaming and dumping the entire hybrid issue on flowerhorn enthusiasts" is an inflammatory statement with no grounds in the truth. You started up the issue by focussing on flowerhorns, you got a response regarding flowerhorns. All we did was stay on the topic you brought up and now you complain about it?

Lastly, and this is a general comment that applies to everything: the comments of a committee member are his/her own personal view and not the voice of the committee. So even if (and I challenge you to show a quote from a committee member) someone from the committee said that "flowerhorn enthusiasts" are entirely to blame for the hybrid problem, this would have been a personal opinion and not the stance of the committee.

[STEVEGREEN]

i will tell you one thing for free , cichlids dont help any shop

gold fish and guppies do.

if cichlids made shops money , they would not have "assorted cichlid" tanks.

as they are not a significant source of income for the shops the care factor is very low.

this isnt condeming them , this is the truth

most cichlid people want to pay next to nothing for their fish , want top dollar for their fry and spend next to nothing at the shops

so why the hell would they care about hybrids???

Cheers
Steve Green

[golden_dase]

most cichlid people want to pay next to nothing for their fish , want top dollar for their fry and spend next to nothing at the shops

I'm willing to pay $$$ for fish I like... I basically give excess fish/fry away... and I spend sh&*loads at LFS..

[Den]

Lastly, and this is a general comment that applies to everything: the comments of a committee member are his/her own personal view and not the voice of the committee. So even if (and I challenge you to show a quote from a committee member) someone from the committee said that "flowerhorn enthusiasts" are entirely to blame for the hybrid problem, this would have been a personal opinion and not the stance of the committee.

Tim I can then only ask why are flowerhorns the only fish on Earth to be banned from discussion on this "cichlid" forum?

I wonder how many hybrids(especially malawis) are being sold on the PCS forum with no one the wiser? To avoid mislabelled hybrids being spread perhaps no fish should be sold on the forum without a reasonably clear photo of the actual fish being sold, that way anyone accidentally or intentionally peddling hybrids have a chance to be stopped. People who cant take photos will have to learn, its simple enough to do.

Den, if you honestly think there was no hybridising going on in that tank then I think you're kidding yourself

Spawning is completed in a matter minutes(sometimes seconds) and a complete spawn is easily witnessed. I work from home so I was personally able to observe hundreds of complete spawnings in my large tanks, I cannot recall witnessing a hybrid spawning, that was my observation, I suspect that if it was commonly going on behind my back then I should have at least witnessed a hybrid spawn take place at least once over the years, all my fry were visibly true to breed, many PCS members have them, I never received a complaint about any being hybrids.

Cheers
Den

[Fish Antics]

SSteve (Tucunare) post demonstrates the problem with hybrids in the hobby. Once in the population it is very difficult to tell. This is why we as a club and Cichlid enthusiasts do every thing we can to discourage them. We can not control what people do in their own homes and what shops sell in their shop. The only thing we can do is educate people about cichlids and discourage people keeping or breeding Hybrids. As a club of enthusiasts we do what we can to follow the clubs aim to try to maintain the integrity of each species. It was through the requests from enthusiasts that fish started to be sold by locality varieties. Quite a number of aquarium shop owners are Cichlid and general fish enthusiasts which is why they got into the industry, I am sure none of them just woke up one day and figured it is a quick way to get rich. While Cichlid enthusiasts may not provide the shops with lots of cash the shops recognise their function in the hobby.
Flowerhorns are not the only Hybrid banned, they are just the one you are heavily promoting at the moment until your next venture.
We are all individuals and have freedom of choice and no one is going to be able to make you change your mind if it has already been made up. All we can hope is that those still learning or making up their mind choose to help their fish healthy and true to species.

Tony

[Fox]

2yrs ago I had a 6x18x18 with 93 fish, Neon spots, trewavasae, mpanga, polits & koningsi, I was growing them out and they spawned several times in that tank, not once did they cross, How do I know???? I grew out the fry and not 1 of them was a cross. The Mpanga's were some of the best I've ever seen.
I was amazed myself that there weren't any crosses, each colony stuck to themselves without trying to get involved with each other.
And yes I have people to back me up, many saw it and couldn't believe it.

i will tell you one thing for free , cichlids dont help any shop

gold fish and guppies do

Sorry bud, would have to disagree with you here, Midland pet sells more cichlids than any other fish, Our bread & butter side has dwindled and I can hardly keep up with the cichlid side of things.
3yrs ago things were different, but things have changed and Malawi's & Tang's are our strong sellers.

But in saying that, Its the first shop in my retail life (18yrs) that Cichlids sell more so

[Den]

Flowerhorns are not the only Hybrid banned, they are just the one you are heavily promoting at the moment until your next venture.

Is this is directed at me Tony? you may notice on all the other forums that allow flowerhorns that I dont have any for sale. Speaking of selling hybrids, you are the one selling them for a living, hows those 4 tanks full of hybrid peakocks your selling at the shop moving? they look really colourful, I bet they are a good seller for you.


I think I might start getting into man made discus, this discussion could get really interesting here when I start a discus breeding program.

Cheers
Den

[Scat]

Den,

You and my wife should be best friends..............

Shes never wrong either


Craig

[Den]

I think that question needs answering Tony?

Tony why are you so against flowerhorns, but you seem happy to sell thousands of hybrid peakocks from the store you work in? I seen 4 tanks completely filled to the brim with marbled peakocks and plus other tanks with dragon bloods in the shop you work in for sale. I dont have a problem with those peakocks and I also think its great shop, but it seems you have a conflict there in your beliefs.


Cheers
Den

[werdna]

Although mentioned in the title, there was on further mention of flowerhorns in the original post. Why are they being brought into the argument? I'm over hearing about them. Most people probably are. Get over it. If they were the only form of hybrid out there, I would understand, but they aren't.
Steve was stating an observation he had that shows the precise reason why most cichlid keepers are against hybrids. Why does it have to turn into another flowerhorn debate?

Trying to force people to change their stance on an issue by constant promotion isn't going to work, just wish someone would tell krudd that with his stupid mining tax!