137 replies to this topic

[Fish Antics]

The answer to your question is simple: Its not my shop. They also sell flowerhorns. If I am asked for my opinion I will share and I will make recomendations to avoid hybrids, however as I said I can not make up another persons mind for them, just offer advice where I can.

[Den]

The answer to your question is simple: Its not my shop. They also sell flowerhorns.

I know I bought 4 flowerhorns from there!

Just wanted to point out again that I think its a great shop (I have made several long drives to visit it recently) I am not trying to knock anything or anyone I was just trying to get a better understanding of your stance Tony.

Wether its your shop or not your income is partly derived from the sale of hybrids and I think that is fine as it is being done in a very proffesional manner as the fish in the store are all correctly labelled and I have even seen a staff member make one enquiring customer aware of the fact they are hybrids. The flowerhorn hobby can also be responsibly managed this way.

Just because I like flowerhorns does not mean that I have no interest in helping to ensure natural species in the hobby remain unspoilt, these are two seperate issues and sections of the hobby as far as I can see, simply because flowerhorns are mostly used to make other flowerhorns and natural species are used to maintain natural species.

Cheers
Den

[scottyhooton]

should'nt we all care about whats in our own tanks , i dont give a fly #### what others keep together/breed together sell in shops ect ..... cichlid keepers in general dont care much for hybrids , and the pcs takes care of limiting the trade of hybrids within our club so why should we give a #### what happens outside this forum?

scott

[Ronny]

In short, whatever happens outside this forum could have a huge impact on what happens in our own tanks...

[Den]

Gee Den , sure glad i didnt buy anything out of that tank of mixed lollies , but unlike most , i'll ask what tank mates the breeders were kept with i cannot believe the choice of fish you kept together in the 10 footer , did any forum members comment on your ridiculous mixture of fish when you first posted these pics.

unbelievable

Hi Steve Green

Can I politely ask whats the largest tank you have ever kept and have you ever kept a large population and variety of Malawis together in it? have you ever kept Malawis? Seems you have a negative opinion about my setup so I must come to the conclusion you have some personal experience in this field that was contrary to mine? I am interested to know where you base your opinions from?

Having personally kept tanks from 1 foot to 10foot and over 1500litres in size I can inform you and others who may not have experience with owning large tanks that fish behave differently/more natural behaviours come out once you go over 1000 litres in capacity together with a natural setting and conditions.

I can give one good example of the 2 most cloesely related fish in the 10 foot tank, I kept 1 shoal of about 50 P. acei msuli point and about 20 or more P. acei Ngara, outside of feeding times these two acei varients kept fairly tight seperate shoals, and while both shoals crossed each others path from time to time they never intermingled outside of feeding time which naturally draws all the fish in the tank together to one feeding point while the food lasts. I witnessed maybe a hundred spawns with these fish and never did I see them show interest between species.

So if you are trying to compare what happens in someones crammed 90litre 3 foot glorified goldfish bowl to what happened in my 10foot long 1500litre tank you are drawing a false conclusion.

Cheers
Den

[scottyhooton]

In short, whatever happens outside this forum could have a huge impact on what happens in our own tanks...

maybe i'm not too aware if the main issue here but things can only affect us if we let them ....... just an opinion

p.s i have never seen a hybrid that i like

[Fish Antics]

Having personally kept tanks from 1 foot to 10foot and over 1500litres in size I can inform you and others who may not have experience with owning large tanks that fish behave differently/more natural behaviours come out once you go over 1000 litres in capacity together with a natural setting and conditions.

I can give one good example of the 2 most cloesely related fish in the 10 foot tank, I kept 1 shoal of about 50 P. acei msuli point and about 20 or more P. acei Ngara, outside of feeding times these two acei varients kept fairly tight seperate shoals, and while both shoals crossed each others path from time to time they never intermingled outside of feeding time which naturally draws all the fish in the tank together to one feeding point while the food lasts. I witnessed maybe a hundred spawns with these fish and never did I see them show interest between species.

I agree that with space fish act more naturally. In summer I have a number of fish in my 8000L pond and to see them shoal together and swim amoung each other is a fantastic site. Fish that show so much aggression in the confinds of a tank act completely different given a larger area. This is one of the reason that Hybrids are so rare in the wild and yet in the confinds of an aquarium can happen so easily.

[Blakey]

I wont buy a fish unless i can see it first... and if possible pictures of the parents. If the breeder is reputable it also makes the buying process easier.

I think it comes down to education and alot of that is on the weight of the LFS's.... maybe a simple 'How to care for..' guide be offered with the sale of cichlids and have a section about interbreeding species?

I dont think people realise how important this issue is. We shouldnt play god, and although there is a chance of it naturally occuring the survival of the fish is however decreased. Not to mention species are not forcefully confined to such small spaces in the wild nor are they fed foods that would increase their hormones and colours.
I am a huge fan of community malawi tanks but care must be taken about what species you mix... and it is possible to get a great mix of fish with all the colour and with an extremely low chance of them interbreeding. For example.. Electric Yellows and C.Moorii i cant imagine would ever cross breed.... however in a tank would look fantastic. A much better mix than say Electric Yellows and Cobalts..

[gibbs]

The problem with hybrids is they can take on the identity of either parent. They can look 100% like either mum or dad or they can look like a strange mix of the 2 species. It's not until these fish reproduce themselves that you get a true sign of there genes especially when they start throwing these strange looking fish.

Den, to say that you witnessed entire spawns when you believe that spawning takes only a few minutes has me glad i never bought anyfish from you, especially considering the fish you housed together. Spawning can take hours with fish going back to mate several times. Often another fish may jump in to score a quicky while the initial male is off minding his own business.

I think your tank is an awesome looking display tank but not an ideal breeding setup.

[Den]

Den, to say that you witnessed entire spawns when you believe that spawning takes only a few minutes has me glad i never bought anyfish from you, especially considering the fish you housed together. Spawning can take hours with fish going back to mate several times.

Another critic who offers no examples from first hand experiences? If you are going to make comments like that you should at least provide some examples of your first hand experience, Im getting criticism from some people here who have never even kept a Malawi tank.

Can you please let us know what species you are reffering to in my tank with which you have first hand experience in breeding and in what size tank you have them in and with what tank mates? I have never seen a malawi spawn that took hours in my tanks and in some of my acei spawns had over 100 eggs, they pop them out and suck them up fast. But Ive never kept Malawis in little tanks so I dont know what goes on there maybe you can share with us your experiences with breeding malawis which seems to be very different to mine?

Cheers
Den

[dazzabozza]

Den are you using your own experience as fact? Are you saying that a large tank rules out the possibility of cross breeding?

Mind refreshing my mind as to the purpose of your argument (where is this leading to)?


Daz

[Den]

Sorry Dazza I cant read the thread for you All experiences are a fact, though Steve, Tony and I seem to be the only people who have shared real personal experiences here, others are just making shallow remarks based on assumptions and innuendo.

I cant say that no hybrids were produced in my tank, but I can confirm and share what I observed, which is what I have done.

If people here want to have substance in their comments, especially when you disagree with someone, have some real facts behind you that relate to the subject at hand.

OK so some of you people heard of malawi hybrids but you have no idea what caused this to happen so you just lump the problem at any tank that has a bunch of different malawis in it and just assume any fish will hybridise if they get the chance, this is not true.

Cheers
Den

[dazzabozza]

Den your experiences are true (yes they actually happened) but the result of those experiences are not fact nor provide any guarantee that the fish you listed won't cross breed (regardless of their environment).

Looking at your last reply I assume you agree with me here, that experience does not equal fact and that different people will have different experiences with different results. You're contesting that some people contributing to the thread haven't had the experience or provided sufficient examples but at the end of the day it's irrelevant because experience is not fact or nor a guarantee. I suppose the only real benefit is you can increase the odds to your favour by learning from experience...

I'm still struggling to see your argument (throughout the entire thread) when comparing to the purpose of the thread. I think Steve/Tucunare is basically saying that hobbyists play a small part when it comes to fish keeping as a whole so why enforce such stances on hybrids when it is accepted outside of the realms of cichlid societies?? How do your examples relate? Perhaps I'm looking at all this at a totally different angle??


Daz

[Tucunare]

i know , how about we start a club to educate people about the dangers of hybrids!!!!!!

ohh no , that wont work .

its your relaxed attitude on the subject Steve that has allowed you to provide a service to a paying customer for the money , and not taking time to think of the hobby.

why , if you knew before the fact , would you allow the owner of the tank trade the fish into a shop when it is in a community tank with the chance of x-breeding ?

why not take the 2 minutes out of your time an explain the problem ??? oh thats right , to you there is no problem.

Gee Den , sure glad i didnt buy anything out of that tank of mixed lollies , but unlike most , i'll ask what tank mates the breeders were kept with i cannot believe the choice of fish you kept together in the 10 footer , did any forum members comment on your ridiculous mixture of fish when you first posted these pics.

unbelievable

cheers
Steve Green

mate, thanks for the personal attack.
for i guy ive never met you sure know alot about me, what i do and how it all works , youve made yourself look like a bit of an idiot.
im not getting into it and it was never my intention
again simply an observation.

[Tucunare]

daz my comments were not based in anyway towards the pcs and its policies, i think as a club you should do whats right for the industry which depending on how you look at could go either way.
ill support any decision which is made.

[dazzabozza]

No probs Steve, I fully understand that, was just reinforcing your observations and trying to clarify Den's intentions.

[Scat]

What is Dens intentions ?



Craig

[CubanB]

to stir the pot

[Den]

What is Dens intentions

Im simply responding to comments directed at me.

OK from now on I will ignore all posts, so dont anyone bother to aim a comment to me because it will be ignored, you can all jump in a lake


Cheers
Den

[werdna]

I recently had a male electric yellow dancing with a female acuticeps.
I can't say they definately will breed as I removed the male as quick as I could.
The tank is an 8x2x2 with 3ft sump and 5000lph pump.

This is only a post about one of my experiences in fish keeping and is not intended as a direct attack on flowerhorns, their keepers or any person in particular.
Have a nice day

Andrew