170 replies to this topic

[Mr_docfish]

We currently have blueberry zebras in stock from a local breeder (I did not get them in, so I dont know who bred them.. Ill find out) and you can see clear normal blue males in the batch... there is a majority of females in this batch - ill check the actual ratio tomorrow..

These were produced from both OB parents....

From the start, all albino, tangerine and marble peacocks were breeding true to form in both males and females - there were and still are some throwbacks to original colouration in both males and females...
every now and then, new bloodlines of other normal peacocks are added to the gene pool in marble peacocks to maintain colour, shape and size (prevent inbreeding issues) and still these fish bred 99% true to OB colour....

it is only recently that I have heard of blueberry zebras that breed 50/50 males and females... if you were to introduce a normal colour male into the gene pool, then will this 50/50 ratio continue? genetically, it will not... but try it if you wish, it would do the bloodline some good.

[scottyhooton]

Olly - Guess who! thats right they are from me!!!

the males will start to blotch up soon .. trust me , they are all born blue , very shortly after the girls turn orange blotchy , close to maturity the males blotch up also .

I brought them in to K.Girl last week

[Mr_docfish]

It seems as if there is a theory of differences between aquarium and lake genes, and then used lake gene evidence to prove a theory on aquarium strains...
You cannot use research based on natural evolution in the lake on evolution in a tank.
Fish evolve differently in aquariums.

how many generations has it taken to get blueberry zebras to breed 50/50 OB male to female (I have still to see it personally, though I have heard it is possible) where the marble peacock male was available years ahead, and the tangerine was being bred in Oz years before the first marble was imported. These facts are being ignored in the debate.

Show me any other mbuna that can show 50/50 OB male to female ratio....

The development of other fish (discus, angelfish etc) is also far ahead of the blueberry zebra.... so if blueberry zebras were the first to show this male OB characteristic, then why has it not evolved as quickly in the aquarium like other fish species?

if the OB male peacock was to consistently revert back to the normal colouration after each back crossing to normal peacock, then it would not have been developed as quick as it has.... it would still be in the same realms as the BB zebra. The facts are there in black and white - if the gene was obtained from a mbuna, then the males would not show a consistent 50/50 male female ratio and would not show 99% OB characteristics due to the ZW system which has evolved over a millennia, and this cannot be reversed back to a solely XY system - it is a one way path.... you can have a XY system, a mix of XY and ZW systems (currently in mbuna) or in some extreme cases, solely ZW sex determination system (some frogs show this)... there are no examples in the world of any animal reverting back to the XY system once it travels down the ZW path.

the males will start to blotch up soon .. trust me , they are all born blue , very shortly after the girls turn orange blotchy , close to maturity the males blotch up also .

Ok... that sorts out that question in my head......

so it sounds like the OB characteristic in BB Zebs is turned on once the testosterone picks up.....

so can someone tell me - why do the marble peacocks all look OB from birth and only pick up the blue colouration once mature? - quite the opposite....

[scottyhooton]

this does happen with some of the blueberry males - they look like girls for a while then the blue comes in

[Fish Antics]

None of the information is being ignored. It is all part of the process of being compiled and the evaluated. The reason why it was brought up was trying to find the truth behind the source and not just make decissions based on what is generally repeated on the forums.

Tony

[Mr_docfish]

They are all abstracts that you have posted.
Have you got the full articles? I wouldnt mind reading them, especially the science mag one.

With both references, you can sign up for a free copy in PDF format.... if you dont want to sign up, let me know and Ill send these to you via email.

I cant get a free copy of the one linked by Ad from Molecular bilology - so if anyone can get a copy via their Uni library, it would be useful..... PM me if you can.

[Mr_docfish]

http://www.qldaf.com...html#post192977

Hybrid Peacock??????????????

am unsure of the dates - but years back every strain of Aulonocara was put into a separate species. At some stage most were moved to stuargranti. Not sure if this was based on in depth morphology studies, or someone designed some PCR primers and checked the DNA. and yes, this is still a REALLY expensive process.
Recently AQIS QLD read on the internet somewhere (now there's a reliable and trustworthy scientific database) that OB Peacocks were a hybrid. So they started confiscating them on arrival. Didn't actually bother to let anybody know they were going to do this - such as an official announcement or email - just started killing shipments as they arrived. They were taking both tangerine and OBs. One importer challenged this and had specimens sent to the Museum for ID.
Without going into too much detail - the results were as follows:
"Count of fin rays, scales and gill rakers....were best fit with Aulonocara spp"
With regards to teeth:
"Pseudotropheus zebra has distinctly bicuspid teeth in the outer rows and numerous inner rows of distinctly tricuspid teeth. No indication of this character state was found in any of the specimens."

"It was not possible to provide a species level identification but all specimens were most closely aligned with the genus Aulonocara. None of the specimens exhibited features consistent with or significantly aligned with other Malawi Cichlid genera."

So - we could conclude that if the OB gene was brought in to the peacock group by cross breeding - there has been sufficient line breeding back to type for morphology to indicate only peacock genetics (DNA testing would be the only way to be certain)
This is not uncommon in breeders of birds, mammals etc - getting a colour gene from one species and then breeding back to type with the original.

The results were of course ignored by AQIS. They will allow tangerines, but not OB. Further proof AQIS Queensland runs as a law unto themselves - all other states can still bring in OB peacocks. Where is Fair Trading when you need them???


Regards, Jodi-Lea

As it turns out... AQIS have a policy of not telling us things as it is not their job to tell us what we can and cant bring in, they just enforce it..... Hybrids cant come in, so when they discovered what the forums say, they tell their officers to confiscate under the no hybrids rule.... we as importers should know this rule.... but for over 20years, we have been importing all Aulonocara, including marbles and when they change their minds on marbles, they dont want to tell us, they want to confiscate so they have proof that they are doing a good job for the Oz environment.... meanwhile cane toads hop into WA from QLD.... "oh, but we dont import marble peacocks any more because they are hybrids and can cause untold damage if they get into our pristine tropical waterways.....if the cane toads dont eat them first..."
Wouldn't you just love to be on their happy pills?

Edited by Mr_docfish, 02 July 2011 - 10:26 PM.

[Fish Antics]

At the last committee meeting we discussed the issue and the recommendation was put forward that due to the inconclusive evidence either way that the status quo remain that regards the Marbled, Tangerine and dragon blood peacocks as Aquarium strains.
As further information and evidence becomes available we will endeavour to keep everyone informed.

Tony

[Mr_docfish]

So the committee see the marble peacock as an Aquarium Strain and not as a Hybrid?.... same boat as the tangerine etc?

[scottyhooton]

Yep that's the verdict Ollie

[Mr_docfish]