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Sunken Belly


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#1 aajvcad

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 01:17 PM

Hey.

Not sure if anyone has spotted this lately but almost all shops selling fish have this problem... sunken belly.

I originally saw it when I purchased fish while back. Tried all kind of treatments and nothing would work. Then I got some tablets recommended by seview guys and finally managed to treat it by soaking food in it.

Have treated many fish since then and they all came good.

But to the original statement... I wonder why it is so common now.

#2 dori

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 05:30 PM

from my experience when my fish showed symptoms of sunken belly they died few weeks later 

 

but also interested to see what people have to say about this 



#3 Tarpon

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 03:55 PM

But to the original statement... I wonder why it is so common now.

 

Fish TB, almost incurable. I would like the Fish Vet to give his opinion but I had some fish tested in a lab and its what we found

Very hard for wholesalers and retailers to prevent spreading so its not their fault, but it seems endemic in WA now

That's why a lot of people I know and myself included are keeping less fish and losing interest


Edited by Tarpon, 02 February 2015 - 03:59 PM.


#4 Westie

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 05:59 PM

Fish TB? Isn't this what Den was talking about not too long ago? Bit of a worry.....

#5 Buccal

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 08:28 PM

Yep, it's fish TB (waisting),,, there are a few species of Mycobacterium (TB), that has the waisting outcome.
This disease is systemic,,, so it's very rarely reversible,,,, but its been reversed before and likely a lesser aggressive specie of Mycobacterium.
Funnily enough, best treatment is prevention,,, as the disease is almost always prevelent waiting its chance to take hold of a weakend immune system.
It's a given that fish in shops are stressed and a little more prone than fish in a fastidious fish keepers tank (not many fisho's like this around though, lol),,,,,, especially these days with backyard, gumtree and online sales which now has shop fish sitting in shops for longer.
The problem is all over,, not just in one or two areas.

It's simple, if a stressed fish has a weak immune system it's more susceptible.
Shops, suppliers and breeders have become very aware of this in the past 3 years.

A few things for prevention:

Keep all perameters,,, ph, temp, GH and so on at a constant with minimal fluctuation.

No excessive waiste or dead fish present.

Keep your KH as high as you can,,, because it helps sustain higher levels of natural benefial bacteria, converting waiste more efficiently.

Introduction of man cultivated beneficial bacterias (Bacillus strains) which also helps boost the nitrogen cycle.

Now,,, not only the above mentioned keeps the environment in top working order,,, MOST IMPORTANTLY HIGHER LEVELS OF ALL TYPES OF BENEFICIAL BACTERIAS ACTUALLY OUT COMPETES DISEASE CAUSING BACTERIAS.

A proper UV sterilization unit set with the correct formula of sizing also works,,, but it's not needed really if all practices are carried out correctly and really is more of a commercial thing where fish stress is just a given.

Basically when to many negative factors occur,,, maybe 1 out of 20 may become infected,,, if the issues aren't fixed then more fish contract the TB giving the appearance of spreading contagiously,,,, it can be contagious but very very low level, but obviously higher when all inhabitants become susceptible stress related.

Depending on TB varient, it usually has two or three life stages,,,,, usually once the aquarist notices the issue it's into a second or third stage which is the reason also for being relatively incurable as well as systemic.
Many years ago DMZ and metro would sometimes work,,, but it doesn't work so much these days (possibly developed resistance).

There are plenty of breeders out there selling privately with poor practices harboring these issues, that's for sure.
Keeping fish with out TB problems is fairly easy once its nature is understood.
It's a derived strain mutated in the home aquarium,,,, it's a big problem overseas to.

Edited by Buccal, 02 February 2015 - 08:32 PM.


#6 Tarpon

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 08:06 AM

Fish TB? Isn't this what Den was talking about not too long ago? Bit of a worry.....

 

Huge worry, I suspect all fish in Australia harbour TB. As Buccal notes when they are stressed and immunity drops only  then does it becomes apparent.

Most LFS use centralized filtration so one fish in a tank or shop means that they are all exposed to it. And again its not the LFS fault as any trade in to them or a wholesaler may have TB and not clinically obvious

Unfortunately fish TB will end up being more damaging to the hobby here than biosecurity legislation or quarantine rules

Doesn't take long for tanks of wasting away and dying fish for the average hobbyist to be turned off fishkeeping



#7 Mr_docfish

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 06:49 PM

whoa..... hold your bolting horses......

Fish TB is often a cop-out for many issues.....

 

We run a recirc system.... try finding a TB issue with our fish.....

 

Too often it is an issue with either worms (variety of types) or flagellates... hence how aajvcad managed to stop the problem.

 

TB is easy to control (trade secret - I wont tell... ) but Buccal is on the right track.

 

If you have a fish with suspected sunken belly issues - let me know who, what, why, etc..... and Ill do my best to help.

 

Even though some think every LFS has a problem..... consider that not all LFS's (or actually, supermarket pet shops) have the same husbandry system in place to serve up and maintain quality fish as us.  Some shops get in, then sell same day - any fish they can... no time for treating the fish for issues before they sell them.... we have received fish from a major wholesaler with big swollen red backsides - full of worms  - took 5 days to clear them of the issue before we offered the fish for sale....

 

Don't tar all the shops with the same brush..... some of us try harder than most..... real LFS's, I'm sure, will do the same as us.... but for the supermarket stores - I don't know if they know what to use to treat for worms or flagellates.....

Rant Over

Buzz me if you have a problem :)


Edited by Mr_docfish, 06 February 2015 - 07:11 PM.


#8 aajvcad

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 08:33 PM

To be honest I never really found out if it was Fish TB or something else. But some cases have been very severe.

I still have 2 7bar frontosas which were in very very bad condition. I was lucky they were still eating so I could treat them.they look awesome now.

So I did end up buying few sunken belly fish on purpose after I discovered what worked for me to confirm it wasn't just a one of miracle.

During different treatments I have experimented with amounts of medicines and food.

So what I ended up using is Para Gone from Aquasonic, liquid Vitamin6 and liquid garlic supplement for aquarium use.

(As mentioned above I did try every other parasite medicine available for sale with no luck)

What I have learned that overdosing on the above can have different effects on the fish.

For example using to much vitmain6 has caused the fish to have instant bowel movement.

Using to much garlic will cause fish to have temporary spasms and loose colour.

So I finally fine tuned it to a point where it worked for me ever since.

It is important to mention that this was mostly done on cichlids.

Tried different pallets but New Life Spectrum sinking pallets ended up being best at absorbing and drying with keeping medicine. 1mm worked best 4 me.

So I use 1/4 of the tablet and dissolve it in a small amount of water. Small enough to just cover 1 weeks worth of pallets.

to that I add 4 drops of vitamin 6 and 2 drops of liquid garlic. You may have to go less garlic in the beginning if your fish don't eat it.

The tablet will need some force to dissolve completely.

Once its all mixed I cover a weeks worth of pallets with the solution. Just enough for the pallets to soak it all in.

The pallets are spread out so no pallet is on top of another... meaning all flat.

Will take good 24+hrs to dry.

So I feed them this for 5 days. 6th day no food and 7 day I gave them some frozen greens (from LFS) or blanched pealed peas chopped to suit fish mouth size.

If u watch closely the first day of week 2 you will see some difference. I fed them extra on this day and changed the water.

Water in aquariums with such fish is always very good meaning Nitrate no more than 10 mg/L.

By end of week 3 you will see some serious improvement. Some fish will even get the full belly back. I continue for the 4th week.

Then they go back to normal food (no medicine) for 6 days per week and medicated food on 7th day. By this stage most of the fish have been treated but I continued to feed medicated food on 7th day for further 3 weeks.

So far no relapse in any of the treated fish.

if I do have some medicated food left from treatments I do feed other fish a bit.

#9 Buccal

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 09:02 PM

Actually I probably flew of the handle a bit and got a bit excited.
If one wants to worry about problem diseases it would have to be flagellates which can have similar symptoms and effects on fish like the 1 in 20 or 1 in 10 or 1 in 30 or whatever.
Both TB and flagellates cause internal infection causing waisting.
But TB not only causes internal infections, but external as well, cloudy eyes, open wound like lesions or even straight out holes in the fishes belly.
Sometimes the two diseases can be confused.
Flagellates is also a world wide problem especially Germany where some killer strains have evolved.

TB is usually caused by poor practice or as mentioned, and/or receiving the fish in early stages then breakout occurring in your system.
Flagellates may not exist in the environment till introduced,,,,
Tb is similar but gets confusing to talk about it's existence to begin with.

So TB can be due to poor practice or introduced with infected fish.
Flagellates can be introduced the same way but it has to be introduced before poor practices let it take hold.

Prevention for both is as I've already described on my above post.
Some medications may treat both.

But if Oliver (Fishdoc) says go see him, take advantage of that and get your descriptions correct for a accurate cure.
Because it can get bloody confusing.

Edited by Buccal, 06 February 2015 - 09:05 PM.


#10 dicky7

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 11:02 PM

Dam interesting thread thankyou all for the input aajvcad you have done an awesome job of treating your fish and thankyou for the detailed write up and others who have contributed to the thread

 

 

I think it needs pinning as a reference for the future

 

Cheers

Well done



#11 Tarpon

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 11:58 PM

Fish TB is often a cop-out for many issues.....

 

 

 

I have easy access to microbiology labs and sent specimens disected from hollow bellied fish  sourced from 4 different fish stores which all grew Mycobacterium or fish TB. I won't name the stores but they were not supermarket type fish stores as I don't buy fish from them

Mycobacterium very difficult to treat in humans and I suspect it is also difficult to treat in fish. My understanding is that DMZ/metronidazole is useless

I can totally understand Oliver protecting trade secrets but perhaps the Fish Vet if he visits this site can also give his opinion?



#12 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 03:32 AM

if tb is present in all aquariums and only effects fish when their immune system is compromised - is it possible to find mycobacterium present in all fish ? ? ? 



#13 Tarpon

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 07:47 AM

That is the question bijohnnofish which I would love the Fish Vet to give his opinion on

I only have limited texts on fish disease, the most current is the British Small Animal Veterinary Association Manual Of Ornamental Fish which describes Mycobacterium marinum/fortuitum/chelonae as being very common and difficult to eradicate with no clinical trials supporting antibiotic use. Recommended treatment is to destroy infected fish  

Could be like the Walking Dead where everyone is infected and will eventually die


Edited by Tarpon, 08 February 2015 - 02:42 PM.


#14 Buccal

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 07:53 AM

A healthy fishes immnune wards of the bacteria,,, if it shows in the body as a test,, then likely fish is destined to outbreak,,, but still possible to function normally for a very long time till it it experiences stress or even premature aging, then symptoms set in.
There are fish types that are actually carriers that aren't so effected like common types of plecos and bristle noses.
These carriers will carry both flagellates and TB.

#15 Mr_docfish

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 01:08 PM

If you keep orchids and Broms - or any plant in a tropical/humid greenhouse, then you will find a plethora of different types of MB... Not the fish type, but other types that can infect humans....
When you go to a tropical country, wade through tropical creeks or road run offs, you will be in contact with an even greater variety of MB including water born types that infect fish and humans....

So scare mongering asside.... Yes you will find all sorts of different MB in all sorts of warm, moist areas.....
If you are worried about getting an MB infection personally, bathe yourself in antibacterial soap.
If you are worried you will lose all your fish to MB, then clean them up, keep them healthy and happy and your fears will will never come true.
If your fish show symptoms of MB, try anti parasitic/flagellate drugs first just in case it is that simple (like in the first post) - if no luck, then do the affected fish a favour and put it out of its misery. Fish can also waste away when they get old, refuse to eat, or have other internal issues like tumours in the wrong places, organ failure, specific nutrient uptake issues etc etc..... Often MB is just the last bug to hop onto an already failing creature.... Test a dead or dying fish and you will find a lot of issues... Almost none of them the initial issue, but secondary/tertiary problem not related to the first.
MB is not a serious issue in the hobby. It is best kept away by following Buccal's first post in this thread. It will only wipe your fish out if the conditions you keep your fish in are poor to start with, or you sorce fish from similar poor keepers of fish (I generally don't like buying old fish from people who keep their fish in NO3 over 80ppm for example) - next time you buy fish, test the water they are packed in.... ;)

Edited by Mr_docfish, 08 February 2015 - 01:18 PM.


#16 Kleinz

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 08:09 PM

That is the question bijohnnofish which I would love the Fish Vet to give his opinion on

 

Well, he is giving another talk to the PCS later on this year. I will ask him if he might deign to give us his wisdom on the subject.



#17 Tarpon

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 10:07 PM

Would be great as it is a confusing topic for me

As Oliver notes there are many different types of Mycobacterium species, but it is incredibly  diificult for humans to catch most of them other than TB. So many people keep fish but how often do you see people with Mycobacterium marinum (fish tank granuloma). Even leprosy caused by Mycobacterium leprae while devastating and very difficult to treat if you have it, is also very hard to catch

 

So my question to the Fish Vet is assuming a fish is infected with TB but not showing signs ie a carrier I suppose, how easy is it for other fish to catch it from the same tank/re-circ system? 



#18 Kleinz

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 10:25 PM

but how often do you see people with Mycobacterium marinum (fish tank granuloma).

 

 

 

Indeed. How often do you see people with Mycobacterium marinum?



#19 Buccal

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 10:26 PM

Anyway, I've seen the odd skinny fish here and there amongst the shops,,, but it's only normal that a few unlucky fish are weak and die.
Its a problem of coarse , but I don't believe there is anything to worry about. (just keep fish the way they should be kept), and that's all that has to be done regarding MB.
The only shops I've bought from in the past five years is Aqoutix and Vebas,,, and not once have I had issues.
Generally fish in shops are moderately fed for cleanliness and minimal filtration impact,,, so don't get confused with that.
A round fat fish is a unhealthy fish.

#20 Buccal

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 10:46 PM

Would be great as it is a confusing topic for me
As Oliver notes there are many different types of Mycobacterium species, but it is incredibly  diificult for humans to catch most of them other than TB. So many people keep fish but how often do you see people with Mycobacterium marinum (fish tank granuloma). Even leprosy caused by Mycobacterium leprae while devastating and very difficult to treat if you have it, is also very hard to catch
 
So my question to the Fish Vet is assuming a fish is infected with TB but not showing signs ie a carrier I suppose, how easy is it for other fish to catch it from the same tank/re-circ system?

I've known three people to get fish TB from there fish,,,,, two got it on their hands from already open wounds and other around the lips.
A coarse or series of antibiotics is needed and can take from 3-8 months to get rid of.
Diseases like this always spreads easier in water as the watery stable conditions of water acts like a chain bridge to pass in and out.
Organisms that live in water are always under going cellular osmosis,,,, meaning the inside of the fish us always exchanging with the outside environment and vise versa.
It doesn't matter so much if the fish carries it or not because the fish is always covered in the infected water it come out of also.

A human body doesn't exchange with the environment like a fish does with osmosis.
So a human generally needs a more direct contact,,, through open wounds, ingesting, through the eyes or nose.

The osmosis that happens in fish is called the osmaregulartory system.
This is why you all may have heard keep the water perameters as stable as possible.
If the environment perameters change to drastically the osmosis in the fishes cells can almost explode or implode trying to find a equilibrium between the inside and outside of the cells.
This contributes to stress that can bring on the topics discussion.
Buts it's this transference between the inside and outside of the fish that makes disease more prevelent in water creatures versus land creatures when comparing diseases that effect both.
You'll never get a straight answer asking these questions. Lol.




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