72 replies to this topic

[Buccal]

That price is crazy Paul, we had Wild caught Frontosa Mpimbwe 15-20cm for $245each and haven't sold one in 6 months. Then dropped the price and sold them. Marc you obviously are making too much money with your stingrays Germany had no minimum requirement shipping, but I could even order 1 box if I wanted, but cost of shipping and quarantine etc would be astronomical as would have been divided by only a few fish

Its Mark .
I have three avenues to pull fish money, this usually means that one is always firing but supports the rest,,, this is how I'm enabling the cichlids again, I'm taking a cut from the profit in another fish field to prop the cichlids....

Sooo,,, some food for thought, and I know yes,, it's a very different view to how many may see it.
I'm not calling it a view to myself, its more reality of observation as Iv been focused on the fish market intensely for last 5 years. .

Not trying to say I know more over anyone,,, do what you will with it, if at all

[Buccal]

That price is crazy Paul, we had Wild caught Frontosa Mpimbwe 15-20cm for $245each and haven't sold one in 6 months. Then dropped the price and sold them. Marc you obviously are making too much money with your stingrays Germany had no minimum requirement shipping, but I could even order 1 box if I wanted, but cost of shipping and quarantine etc would be astronomical as would have been divided by only a few fish

just wanted to add, is that a specialist importer that imports fish to sell only, usually has their own quarantine room on their house dwelling where they live.
They develope relationships with Germany, the importer is doing it for profit, the importer gets particular deals from the German supplier based like so: figures are just examples and not exact...
Buy 2K worth of fish, get 10% off, more profit for importer.
Buy 5k worth of fish, get 20% off, even more profit for importer.
And so on right up to 10k.
Now,,, with what he can sell these for in oz (low value),,, this basically means must order 10k to get any worthwhile profit.

I think I explained that short and easy.

[Pchmb]

That's an interesting thought Buccal, can all the cichlids we have in Perth be imported though? In the case of stingrays and shrimp, yes too? And aquarium plants? The question is not can it breed, or is it too difficult to breed, but is it worth the money to invest in breeding of this particular cichlid? I was pretty disappointed at my first cichlid auction and the price cichlids went for. Shrimp and guppies seem to be were it's at!

[Buccal]

No more imports coming in anymore from Germany, unless rediculous prices are paid for the new testing laws, that was designed to deter importing.

In earlier stages, all fish are imported to begin with,, but not many.
They are then bred and distributed to fish lovers within oz.

The sooner the fish scene becomes starved and fish become illusive, there is a chance some value and collectors start up.
It's not the cycle of fish species interest,, the market has been flat for a very long time.
It's more likely that you didn't start out in a realistic manor,,, please don't take the wrong way.
But if the market isn't flash, then you can't expect a positive outcome,,, but you would of started out fueled with passion.

[Bostave]

No more imports coming in anymore from Germany, unless rediculous prices are paid for the new testing laws, that was designed to deter importing.

Really? Is that why they are doing it?

[Buccal]

Importers can't make money anymore by importing fish for people,,,, well they can make money, but no customer would pay for the rediculous high priced fish.
That's why specialist importers have stopped

[Buccal]

Plus Germany is a also a specialist Cichlid supplier (cichlidstadel), as they only keep cichlids and no other types,, they weren't interested in obtaining scores of cheap fish from outside of their bussiness to add to the fish orders as test sacrificial fish.
They don't consider us as a worth while customer (low expedatures), and then go to the trouble to suit silly nanny Australia.
And most importantly,,, not our beloved cichlids.
Asian countries cooperate no probs,they got good numbers to, unfortunately specialisation in the rift Cichlid isn't any where near as accurate as Germany for quality, purity.
Gemany holds the highest paid collectors license, first dibs to wild collection site, I sure its first.[/quote]

Edited by Buccal, 15 October 2016 - 09:22 AM.

[Poncho]

Bostave - Unofficially yes in many people's minds, but officially it was to address a perceived biosecurity threat. There's a strong argument that suggests the measures taken are a huge over reaction.

Paul I'm not having a go at you but I think it's a shame and a sign of a poor situation when people getting stuck into the cichlid hobby select fish based on the saleability and profit potential of selling juveniles. It just doesn't seem like a hobby but a business decision. If that's the motivation then I think those people are best advised to get a second job rather than breed cichlids.

The question is not can it breed, or is it too difficult to breed, but is it worth the money to invest in breeding of this particular cichlid? I was pretty disappointed at my first cichlid auction and the price cichlids went for. Shrimp and guppies seem to be were it's at!

Prior to the "glory days" of being able to breed 100s of a certain type of fish and move them on at a price that covered costs and put some coin in your pocket, hobbyists used to trade freely with each other if they bred fish. The Mecca I remember was when you could give 10 or so fish to a mate that you bred because they liked them and then a few months later you'd get a call from them asking if you wanted 10 or so fish that they'd bred. From time to time something really special turned up at an lfs or over east and a few mates would chip in and get them here, spread a couple colonies around and one or two would have luck, start breeding and get that species established here. I remember hongi costing a few people hundreds of dollars for a small colony. It was disappointing for some not to be able to keep selling fry for $50 plus but it's an unrealistic expectation and if you manage to find yourself in that situation, sooner or later someone will want a piece of that profit so it can't last forever.

10-15 years ago, making money wasn't factored into the decision making process of whether you get a certain type of fish or not and the hobby was full of passionate, excited people. From my perspective, I've seen that attitude change in regards to keeping cichlids in Perth and a thriving hobby start slowly die off over time with too many profiteers and a lot of newbies being turned off by that and taking up different hobbies. I think buccal is right that you need a couple of stalwarts to ensure some species are not lost when the hobby goes cold (it goes hot and cold all the time) but if everyone's making decisions on keeping fish based on what money they stand to make, then the hobby will never pick up again and everyone loses.

Personally, I expect my hobby to cost me money and if I'm able to recover a bit of that cost then I consider that a bonus. I'm not sure but I think I might be the odd man out having that attitude - basing that on discussions on this forum over the past 3 or 4 years.

[Bostave]

Poncho
Thanks. I knew the reasons but I wanted Buccal to mentioned those as well on the forum so everyone could get the complete picture.

[Buccal]

Bostave - Unofficially yes in many people's minds, but officially it was to address a perceived biosecurity threat. There's a strong argument that suggests the measures taken are a huge over reaction.
Paul I'm not having a go at you but I think it's a shame and a sign of a poor situation when people getting stuck into the cichlid hobby select fish based on the saleability and profit potential of selling juveniles. It just doesn't seem like a hobby but a business decision. If that's the motivation then I think those people are best advised to get a second job rather than breed cichlids.

Prior to the "glory days" of being able to breed 100s of a certain type of fish and move them on at a price that covered costs and put some coin in your pocket, hobbyists used to trade freely with each other if they bred fish. The Mecca I remember was when you could give 10 or so fish to a mate that you bred because they liked them and then a few months later you'd get a call from them asking if you wanted 10 or so fish that they'd bred. From time to time something really special turned up at an lfs or over east and a few mates would chip in and get them here, spread a couple colonies around and one or two would have luck, start breeding and get that species established here. I remember hongi costing a few people hundreds of dollars for a small colony. It was disappointing for some not to be able to keep selling fry for $50 plus but it's an unrealistic expectation and if you manage to find yourself in that situation, sooner or later someone will want a piece of that profit so it can't last forever.
10-15 years ago, making money wasn't factored into the decision making process of whether you get a certain type of fish or not and the hobby was full of passionate, excited people. From my perspective, I've seen that attitude change in regards to keeping cichlids in Perth and a thriving hobby start slowly die off over time with too many profiteers and a lot of newbies being turned off by that and taking up different hobbies. I think buccal is right that you need a couple of stalwarts to ensure some species are not lost when the hobby goes cold (it goes hot and cold all the time) but if everyone's making decisions on keeping fish based on what money they stand to make, then the hobby will never pick up again and everyone loses.

Personally, I expect my hobby to cost me money and if I'm able to recover a bit of that cost then I consider that a bonus. I'm not sure but I think I might be the odd man out having that attitude - basing that on discussions on this forum over the past 3 or 4 years.

lol, funnily enough I agree every single bit.
One even more horrible thing you left out,,, price of electricity, my god, it's magnified the problem by 7x and that's fairly accurate I'd say.

But back to the profit or breaking even so it's not costing, (stalwarts) yes, but large numbers must be sustained with the states ability to buy to keep the turnover,,, because when little profit is made, the bad times shadow the good times,,,, turn up the number production, then the good times start to shadow the bad times.
These are obvservational bussiness techniques I'm using here which are usually used for bussiness issues situations.
But knowledge of sciences directly through hands on and plenty early days of failure has earned me knowledge from a different direction than what most others see it as.
This hobby often becomes one dimensional, meaning, some people tend to think if someone mentions profiting from fish, that they have no passion.
I'm a full time carpenter working for multiple builders and I'm 41 and and been doing it solidly since I left school at year 12.
I love to try and make as much profit from my fish as possible in hope to cover the bad times.
I also find it very hard to believe anyone out there has the strength in passion like I do.
But I'm more interested in the husbandry and economics sides of things,,,, most importantly sustainability, with no short term shot gun decisions for instant signs of improvement, as those instant signs are always short lived.
Well thought out long term strategy is what's needed.

Edited by Buccal, 15 October 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[Chopstick_mike]

Bostave - Unofficially yes in many people's minds, but officially it was to address a perceived biosecurity threat. There's a strong argument that suggests the measures taken are a huge over reaction.

Paul I'm not having a go at you but I think it's a shame and a sign of a poor situation when people getting stuck into the cichlid hobby select fish based on the saleability and profit potential of selling juveniles. It just doesn't seem like a hobby but a business decision. If that's the motivation then I think those people are best advised to get a second job rather than breed cichlids.


Prior to the "glory days" of being able to breed 100s of a certain type of fish and move them on at a price that covered costs and put some coin in your pocket, hobbyists used to trade freely with each other if they bred fish. The Mecca I remember was when you could give 10 or so fish to a mate that you bred because they liked them and then a few months later you'd get a call from them asking if you wanted 10 or so fish that they'd bred. From time to time something really special turned up at an lfs or over east and a few mates would chip in and get them here, spread a couple colonies around and one or two would have luck, start breeding and get that species established here. I remember hongi costing a few people hundreds of dollars for a small colony. It was disappointing for some not to be able to keep selling fry for $50 plus but it's an unrealistic expectation and if you manage to find yourself in that situation, sooner or later someone will want a piece of that profit so it can't last forever.

10-15 years ago, making money wasn't factored into the decision making process of whether you get a certain type of fish or not and the hobby was full of passionate, excited people. From my perspective, I've seen that attitude change in regards to keeping cichlids in Perth and a thriving hobby start slowly die off over time with too many profiteers and a lot of newbies being turned off by that and taking up different hobbies. I think buccal is right that you need a couple of stalwarts to ensure some species are not lost when the hobby goes cold (it goes hot and cold all the time) but if everyone's making decisions on keeping fish based on what money they stand to make, then the hobby will never pick up again and everyone loses.

Personally, I expect my hobby to cost me money and if I'm able to recover a bit of that cost then I consider that a bonus. I'm not sure but I think I might be the odd man out having that attitude - basing that on discussions on this forum over the past 3 or 4 years.

very well written I too know my small breeding setup costs me money but like you say it's not a business for me it's a hobby I enjoy and if I can help get some of the harder breeds introduced and sustaining here in perth that is a bonus

[Pchmb]

Understand your point completely Poncho, and I agree with everything you have said. This is no business for me, not even a side business, but how do you even cover your electricity bill? I have been more calculated in the cichlids I keep that's all, and I'd assume many others are too. You mentioned Hongi, funny that. I took my breeding colony of 7 to Rob's Aquarium 3 weeks back, and that didn't get me a single cent, which was no issue at all, I needed tank space. Yellow tail acei's at 5-6cm got me $4... yet for a guppy at 3 months old he gives me $5, and I breed the bloody things in a kiddies swimming pool out back. I think that is crazy. I love cichlids and I just don't get it, that is why I posted the question on importing etc.

Check out this colony of Tropheus, for the life of me I can't get them to spawn, they are 4+ years old, over 13cm in length, I'm guessing will never recover their expense and just I do not care. They, like my Frontosa keep me entertained for hours.

[Mattia]

Plus Germany is a also a specialist Cichlid supplier (cichlidstadel), as they only keep cichlids and no other types,, they weren't interested in obtaining scores of cheap fish from outside of their bussiness to add to the fish orders as test sacrificial fish.
They don't consider us as a worth while customer (low expedatures), and then go to the trouble to suit silly nanny Australia

Sorry again, but this is untrue.
I can't say much, but I have been to Germany to buy Cichlids a few times, and even before I moved here I knew that Australia was one of their biggest incomes at the time (together with China).
I just spoke to the guys in Germany not even 2 weeks ago, and they actually asked me to please help them with this paperwork crap and "megalocystis virus free" test that they have to do, as they're experiencing a big loss of income since March. Now they're working on it

Can't say much more, but they used to ship $50K of Cichlids every 2-3 months over east. And 50k of fish is a lot of money for Germany, considering that the average person earns $1200-$1500 per month.

[Buccal]

Yes, well my importer was maybe a decent portion of that income,,, but it's really irrelivent the reasons why.
What they earn per month is also irrelivent because cost of living and marketable value systems are set in relation to the average income.
Germany and Australia are very different.

Germany couldn't of wanted it enough,,, if they didn't want to go outside of their bussiness to obtain cheap sacrificial fish for us, which is the way around it.
They would also need periodic inspection clearances for the disease and they wouldn't conform to that either.
So it's pretty obvious that there's not enough beef in it for them,,, spondool

Edited by Buccal, 16 October 2016 - 08:02 AM.

[Ronny]

Sorry again, but this is untrue.
I can't say much, but I have been to Germany to buy Cichlids a few times, and even before I moved here I knew that Australia was one of their biggest incomes at the time (together with China).
I just spoke to the guys in Germany not even 2 weeks ago, and they actually asked me to please help them with this paperwork crap and "megalocystis virus free" test that they have to do, as they're experiencing a big loss of income since March. Now they're working on it

Can't say much more, but they used to ship $50K of Cichlids every 2-3 months over east. And 50k of fish is a lot of money for Germany, considering that the average person earns $1200-$1500 per month.

 

 

This sounds promising! I was under the same impression as Buccal.  

 

Not sure where that info came from.

 

 

By the way, you aren't the first international club member.  My wife was in Hong Kong as a club member years before you were on the forum  

[Mattia]

It's not about sacrificial fish... Ronny, I thought the same too There's a couple of people that were a club member before me, but I guess since the new membership officer is doing things properly that "title" came up. It doesn't really matter anyways as I'm almost Aussie now

[Buccal]

I would have thought the actual importer here in Australia doing the exercise, would be most full bottle,, because they're the ones doing it.

[Poncho]

There's a lot more than just one importer in Australia. To my knowledge Mattia would have been one of the last to actually import. Plus the background he has from working over there gets me excited that there might be some potential in what he's saying. The Germans probably did nothing because the Australian authorities seemed so undecided through the whole process and so being German they didn't want to waste their time or money on something that may not eventuate.

Mattia, I have a fair bit of experience filling out govt forms for environmental approvals and such. If I can be of use to help you set something up then just ask.

[Buccal]

As we all know, the deadline was made for the new system to commence,, everything was pretty clear and properly documented.
There was then a uproar saying no one has had time to prepare.
So the deadline for commencement was pushed back to same date the following year.
They just weren't interested,,, I had a mutual relationship with my importer and he told me how everything was unfolding as it was happening (so no twisted stories if there was any to be).
For most of the time, the Germans weren't very responsive involving the touchy subject.
But always responsive to bussiness,, as most excellent bussiness people are.

The orders of cichlids are all bits n pieces due to the diverse nature of the Malawi and tang fish,,,,,, so to add and mess around with sacrificial fish like this is a logistical mess.
Germany also has some fairly resistant protozoan diseases also,, even though realistically it's prevelant everywhere,,, but Germany knows they got some nasties but cichlidstadel is pretty good,, it's the actual fact that Germany is being forced to leave itself to open interrogation by ,Australia,,,, I sure as hell don't like others making me look like something I'm not going by their silly little systems,,, and guess ,Germany feels like that to.

Edited by Buccal, 16 October 2016 - 04:07 PM.

[bigjohnnofish]

Really? Is that why they are doing it?

 

many reasons why its being done... the basis for it is to put a process in place that can be fiddled with at a later date... its being implemented under the banner of iridovirus... now people that have been in the trade for a long time including shop owners , fish wholesalers / retailers / breeders all know the iridovirus has been here for many years and this new process for quarantining certain fish to endeavor to stop the iridovirus from entering australia is a waste of time... but the process will be in place and they can update to check for any new viruses and disease..... implementing this new process will eliminate majority of small importers as the cost isnt business effective... this leads to easier management of imported fish with only a few big importers left... again making it easier to control what comes through the front door.... so yes this is a reason why they are doing it....