Jump to content





Posted Image

PCS & Stuart M. Grant - Cichlid Preservation Fund - Details here


Photo

HYBRID FISH - *DL WARNING*


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
149 replies to this topic

Poll: Do you think it is ok to breed Hybrids for PERSONAL INTEREST (not for RESALE) (144 member(s) have cast votes)

You cannot see the results of the poll until you have voted. Please login and cast your vote to see the results of this poll.
Vote

#21 gibbs

gibbs
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 08-January 09
  • Location: Bertram

Posted 13 September 2009 - 06:17 PM

Im completely against distributing hybrid fish but if it's for your own enjoyment in your own tanks sure, why not.

#22 the pulpican man

the pulpican man
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 08-January 09
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia

Posted 13 September 2009 - 09:39 PM

there's only one main hybrid being sold at some of our sponsors, Flowerhorns, crossing fish isn't such a bad thing i think its just some people dont want problems with identification, IMO hybrids are stronger, they have done studies on pedigree dogs, turns out they are much weaker and susceptible to sickness etc, if 2 fish Xbreed in the aquarium, they most likely would do it in the wild...

my 2 cents

#23 cichlidsrule

cichlidsrule
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 29-January 09
  • Location: Hillarys

Posted 16 September 2009 - 05:13 PM

I'm pretty sure dogs are the same species so your not really cross breeding them.

Yes there have been fish that cross breed in the wild but it is rare and because there is a hell of a lot more space in the wild it makes it that much harder for 2 species to cross breed.

#24 Kenshin

Kenshin
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 12-March 07
  • Location: Maddington

Posted 17 September 2009 - 08:51 AM

my main gripe with xbreeding of reptiles and fish is that it would not occur in the wild as most of the animals crossed are from completely different regions not to mention in the wild other species are veiwed as competition and not a last ditch efford at trying to breed as a suitable mate cant be found

#25 dave06

dave06
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 26-August 08
  • Location: Craigie

Posted 18 October 2009 - 02:00 AM


I think that the whole issue is taken out of context and that there are some individuals that are very narrow minded to the topic. Sure there is the weak argument that "Hybrid Fish creates confusion with identification and are sold as 'purebred'.... and can taint purebred stocks"....... I can not name one example where I have gone into a shop and seen hybrids labelled as purebred fish.

- Ive seen them mislabled, but not any examples where hybrids are being sold as pure.

Also any genuine fish enthusiast, whom buys fish with the intention to breed them, should be able to identify purebred fish. So if there are hybrids being sold it is unlikely that they would be bred from.

If you look at the included photos, I cant see how any of these can be confused with their pure bred counterparts. This argument certainly doesnt apply to parrots and flowerhorns.

Some Examples are : All dogs are hybrid.... Over a very long period of time many very different varieties have been 'created', This too has been done with hundreds of bird varieties - the canary is a hybrid. There is a great deal to be gained from hybrid animals in the agriculture, pet and aquaria hobby.

I believe that the PCS should encourage and allow the sale of hybrids, this would alleviate the alleged problem of hybrids being mislabelled and sold as pure in shops it would also futher educate people....etc. - As they could be correctly identified and transparenty sold through this forum.

I like a debate!! I look forward to hearing other peoples thoughts.




#26 dave06

dave06
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 26-August 08
  • Location: Craigie

Posted 18 October 2009 - 02:22 AM

This argument can also be applied to selectively breeding - which has been practiced for thousands of years. (this is where fish are selected based on their phenotype (or physical characteristics) and bred). All goldfish varieties, Bettas and in fact most cichlids are subjected to this breeding practice. Over a few generations (or many) the resultant fish can be vastly different to its native form.

Take the basic example of Red Devils or Electric Yellows, where the fish are selected on its "most desired" attributes. The biggest and brightest etc fish are selected and bred from, with the intention of creating 'better' fish, with a more desirable appearance. With each subsequent generation the species differs from its true wild form.

The Poll result is interesting, As a point of debate and further interest, maybe the PCS should reconsider its position on hybrids ?!

#27 dazzabozza

dazzabozza

    Life Member

  • Admin
  • Joined: 16-March 07
  • Location: Beeliar, Perth WA

Posted 18 October 2009 - 08:45 AM

Hey Dave06

A good debate indeed smile.gif (PS - not having "a go" with my comments, just providing some counters)

QUOTE (dave06 @ Oct 18 2009, 02:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that the whole issue is taken out of context and that there are some individuals that are very narrow minded to the topic. Sure there is the weak argument that "Hybrid Fish creates confusion with identification and are sold as 'purebred'.... and can taint purebred stocks"....... I can not name one example where I have gone into a shop and seen hybrids labelled as purebred fish.

- Ive seen them mislabled, but not any examples where hybrids are being sold as pure.

IMO I see your statement a little narrow minded too. Lets not forget that your experience (in what you have seen @ the LFS) alone will not be the same as others. I've personally seen crosses or "unknown" fish.


QUOTE
I believe that the PCS should encourage and allow the sale of hybrids, this would alleviate the alleged problem of hybrids being mislabelled and sold as pure in shops it would also futher educate people....etc.

IMO it shouldn't be encouraged. Our curiosity and competitiveness will make us to "create" new breeds risking existing species from being lost. Peacocks are a classic example where no one is quite sure whether or not we see pure wild strains anymore.


QUOTE
As they could be correctly identified and transparenty sold through this forum

There are plenty of fish that don't get a 100% ID confirmed here.

EDIT - something else that came to mind is you say that most a fish are labelled correctly. Wouldn't you agree that flowerhorns are mis-labelled? IMO for the label to be correct it should be 'xxx species' X 'yyy species' X 'zzz species' instead of the trade name.


Just my 2 cents smile.gif


Daz

#28 dazzabozza

dazzabozza

    Life Member

  • Admin
  • Joined: 16-March 07
  • Location: Beeliar, Perth WA

Posted 20 October 2009 - 04:31 PM

QUOTE (polleni @ Oct 20 2009, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All aside the arguement is a dog chasing its tail; but I do think its 'silly' PCS sponsers sell hybrids (which ended up deformed) in a shopfront and promote their own avertising on here and we cant sell them here privately to private household tanks.

Just to clarify the point above... we have zero control over what people sell (including the sponsors) outside of the forum. The rule of no hybrids to be sold via the forum applies to everyone (if picked up by a moderator). Some may slip through the cracks as there are grey areas or uncertainty as to how some aquarium strains came about etc but the sale of definite hybrids advertised as 'xxx species' X 'yyy species' is not allowed.

In regards to hybrids @ the LFS they wouldn't sell them is there wasn't a demand wink.gif All we can do is educate and let people decide for themselves.


Daz

#29 pmp01

pmp01
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 14-February 09
  • Location: Orelia WA

Posted 12 January 2010 - 09:59 PM

the thing most people are forgetting is that even though cichlids occur natually, is that a majority of african cichlids are hybrids of some form. History goes that apparently there were only about 8 or so species of fish that bred amongst themselves and new species were created.

Don't get me wrong though I am not a fan of hybrids. I did have some that came in a tank setup. They were kinda colourful but very territorial and would eat anything and everything.

#30 tranced

tranced
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 18-October 09

Posted 27 January 2010 - 05:55 PM

well its all good to say... "im going to breed these for myself ONLY and never let them spread around"

lets say you die unexpectedly

and your next of kin, who may have no clue about fish, decides to sell your fish before they all die anyway.

then a bunch of people, who may not have much idea either... buy them. breed them. distribute them. and further mess up the gene pool...

im not the kind of person who thinks its ok to tell other people what to do... so i wont... but personally id rather spend my time improving the natural species we already have...

#31 Robbotheyobbo

Robbotheyobbo
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 05-July 08
  • Location:Hammond Park W.A.
  • Location: Mars

Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:55 PM

QUOTE (tranced @ Jan 27 2010, 07:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
well its all good to say... "im going to breed these for myself ONLY and never let them spread around"

lets say you die unexpectedly

and your next of kin, who may have no clue about fish, decides to sell your fish before they all die anyway.

then a bunch of people, who may not have much idea either... buy them. breed them. distribute them. and further mess up the gene pool...

im not the kind of person who thinks its ok to tell other people what to do... so i wont... but personally id rather spend my time improving the natural species we already have...


i think all this is allready happening ohmy.gif

#32 golden_dase

golden_dase
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 28-March 08
  • Location: Noranda

Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:57 PM

QUOTE (tranced @ Jan 27 2010, 05:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
but personally id rather spend my time improving the natural species we already have...


Agreed! It's what I'm planning..... improving certain breeds/species and also breeding rare fish so it's more readily available in Perth.. biggrin.gif



#33 Robbotheyobbo

Robbotheyobbo
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 05-July 08
  • Location:Hammond Park W.A.
  • Location: Mars

Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:24 PM

QUOTE (golden_dase @ Jan 27 2010, 10:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agreed! It's what I'm planning..... improving certain breeds/species and also breeding rare fish so it's more readily available in Perth.. biggrin.gif


your my hero BIG Kev , do you were your jocks on the out side tongue.gif , just jokes mate , great work , keep it up

#34 Neakit

Neakit
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 22-April 07
  • Location: Ascot

Posted 28 January 2010 - 05:15 PM

QUOTE (tranced @ Jan 27 2010, 05:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
personally id rather spend my time improving the natural species we already have...


Didn't hitler try this? Rofl_3f.gif

#35 tranced

tranced
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 18-October 09

Posted 05 February 2010 - 07:52 PM

i dont think inbreeding is the way to go. i think consciously varying your sources to create more genetic diversity within the species would be better. i mean, you dont see any zoo's with 'inbreeding programs' to make the tigers stripes look better...

#36 Den

Den
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 15-January 05
  • Location: Warnbro W.A.

Posted 20 February 2010 - 12:10 AM

I have seen many hybrid and deformed looking inbred fish in local fish stores and for sale on this forum and LFS fairly regularly, but I am not sure how to tackle this problem without offended the seller or the buyers, in the past when I have made the effort of discretety informing sellers with photos and facts that their fish is either deformed or hybrid I have been sometimes attacked in a most nasty way.

The only advice I can offer to the buyer is that if you are in the situation of aquiring a fish, make good time of homework, study body shape and colour most intensively and ensure you are getting a fish that is good as expected from the natural environment.

Cheers
Den smile.gif

#37 Salpon

Salpon
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 09-October 09
  • Location: Currambine

Posted 03 November 2010 - 08:11 PM

QUOTE (Den @ Feb 20 2010, 12:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have seen many hybrid and deformed looking inbred fish in local fish stores and for sale on this forum and LFS fairly regularly, but I am not sure how to tackle this problem without offended the seller or the buyers, in the past when I have made the effort of discretety informing sellers with photos and facts that their fish is either deformed or hybrid I have been sometimes attacked in a most nasty way.


I agree, it can sometimes be very awkward when you go to look at or pick up a fish and it is not true to what was being advertised.

I think at the end of the day it is the buyer's responsibility to know what they are buying and to ask appropriate questions. I have paid good money for hybrids before because I simply didn't know better and neither did the seller (a store). But lesson learnt, and now I will never go back there. Unfortunately I'm now stuck with these fish because the PCS does not allow me to sell them knowing what they are (although they are attractive display quality fish that could be kept in a non-breeding environment). I could of course lie or sell them as unknown peacocks or something like that, but then I wouldn't be any better than the place I bought them from.

#38 Kieran

Kieran
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 28-May 09
  • Location:Fremantle, WA
  • Location: Fremantle

Posted 03 November 2010 - 08:26 PM

What does the PCS fish rescue/rehousing service do when hybrids are handed in?

#39 tranced

tranced
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 18-October 09

Posted 03 November 2010 - 08:32 PM



#40 Kieran

Kieran
  • Forum Member
  • Joined: 28-May 09
  • Location:Fremantle, WA
  • Location: Fremantle

Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:30 AM

That's the one they try to hybridise with tiger shovelnoses for food right? Pirarara?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users