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#1 Fox

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 03:40 PM

I've noticed an increase of hybrid looking Africans lately, is nobody taking note of what they are buying or breeding anymore?
Cull those hybrids from birth, they arent good for the hobby at all.

#2 Westie

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 03:44 PM

I've noticed it a lot lately when people post pics of their fish on Facebook pages. Maybe it's a lack of education?



#3 tropheus

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 06:00 PM

I agree with Westie
There's probably no increase in hybrids, it's just that they become more visible on social media.
Whilst I hate seeing hybrids,
as long as they are not used as breeding stock or on sold, it's not really a big issue.
Culling would be done by any reputable breeder or genuine aquarium enthusiast, but for the general population they are just excited to have "fish babies". Yay!


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#4 DFishkeeper

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 07:06 PM

Hybrid malawis are a huge problem in SE Qld nowadays, too many inexperienced one tank wonder wannabee breeders breeding their fish in community tanks and selling the hybrid fry on facebook and gumtree to other inexperienced buyers who haven't done their research. These buyers then breed the fish and onsell the fry as pure and so on. You can try and educate them but most don't seem to care.


Edited by DFishkeeper, 02 February 2017 - 07:07 PM.


#5 Hood

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 10:16 PM

#don'tbuyfromnubes ;)

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#6 DFishkeeper

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 07:06 AM

#don'tbuyfromnubes ;)

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The problem is that these "breeders" are selling their hybrids really cheap and making it hard for legitimate breeders to get a reasonable price for quality pure bred fish. Hence lots less quality breeders bothering with Malawi cichlids nowadays.



#7 Hood

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 07:11 AM

Oh I agree it's a problem. But these nubes also seem to have the biggest egos with the most arrogance through the Facebook buy sell groups. I am honestly not sure how we curb this other than trying to initially be nice to everyone and invite them to join the various conclude club's around the nation so as we may try to educate them and address these problems on a larger scale. Unfortunately I do not think these problems are going away anytime soon and I fear it is our responsibility to preserve as many true species we can and circulate them amongst ourselves and through stores. We also need to not try to undercut ourselves either. That is a solid race to the bottom.

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Edited by Hood, 03 February 2017 - 07:12 AM.


#8 Androo

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 07:14 AM

Its not always nubes. When i was a nube i bought fish from a pcs member with around 30 tanks. 50% turned out to be hybrids (they looked pure as juvies, i did do my research) and he tried selling me a super ugly dragon blood cross as a pure hongi and was offended when i said thats not a hongi

#9 sandgroper

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 11:34 AM

Perhaps the PCS could draw up a suggested price guide for pure breeds. Our bird club has this and it gives people a good guide of what a particular breed is worth   ( a starting point). Of course it is still up to the seller as some are better quality than others but it gives the buyer a understanding of the average price. I put the idea forward for the next committee meeting for discussion.



#10 tropheus

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:11 PM

I don't see how price comes into the equation for hybrids.
Uneducated people will likely just buy cheap "pretty" fish. If those fish are hybrids, then that's what they will buy.
I don't agree with it in the slightest, but there's nothing that will change this mindset other than education, and u can't educate people that are ignorant, and/or don't care


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#11 malawiman85

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:30 PM

How about endorsing breeders? It's not a guarantee but endorsement could cover compliance with PCS objectives and a Code of Ethics, etc.

#12 sandgroper

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:11 PM

I don't see how price comes into the equation for hybrids.
Uneducated people will likely just buy cheap "pretty" fish. If those fish are hybrids, then that's what they will buy.
I don't agree with it in the slightest, but there's nothing that will change this mindset other than education, and u can't educate people that are ignorant, and/or don't care


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IMO it doesn't (price) because to me hybrids are worth ZERO but at the end of the day there worth what a buyer is willing to pay. However pure bred strains are worth at least a bench mark and exceptional ones a premium.


Edited by sandgroper, 03 February 2017 - 01:13 PM.


#13 Fox

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:52 PM

How about endorsing breeders? It's not a guarantee but endorsement could cover compliance with PCS objectives and a Code of Ethics, etc.


This idea I like!
Unfortunately hybrids will always be in the hobby.
Ive tried to be nice to ppl on social media "nice display fish bit IMO its a hybrid" and 90% of the time the backlash isnt worth it.
People just dont want to understand or care.
The time will come when people ask on a more regular basis "What happened to _ _ _ _ ?"
They'll be lost to uneducated breeders/keepers or breeders/keepers who are in the industry for a quick buck.

#14 Voodoo

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:22 PM

would it be better to educate people more to sell them as hybrids? similar to rays so that there is a difference between the pure strains and the hybrids? my understanding is that the frustration comes from selling hybrids incorrectly as the pure bloodlines?


Edited by Voodoo, 03 February 2017 - 02:23 PM.


#15 Hood

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 02:15 PM

I think the price guide is a great idea. I tried to push this idea about 6 years ago and was shut down. The hybrid debate is separate to this. But actually educating people that good pure fish are of worth I think is something the hobby needs. The pumping fish out then trying to undercut the next guy is exactly what got us into this mess of crap quality and good breeders packing up in the first place. It also contributes to the flood then disappear roller coaster that happens causing us to lose species.
The hybrid debate is separate and definitely down to education in my opinion. Not just that hybrids are bad m'kay ;) but also down to how to correctly identify good pure fish etc.
Good discussion here guys with some good ideas coming forward. Keep it up. :)

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#16 Link2Hell

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 10:01 AM

it comes down to being a hobbyist or a cash grab

you are either an ethical hobbyist that wants to learn and develop in your hobby

or you don't care, believe you know everything because that is what you bought

them as and so can never be wrong as it's against their ego.

They live with a closed mind while only interested in trying to make money

 

you can't educate someone that has no ethics or doesn't want to learn



#17 Chopstick_mike

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 03:36 PM

Personally half the fun is seeing these fish looking natural and being able to observe there natural habits in aquariums. If people keep hybridising them we will eventually lose that. A lot of people think you are being pig headed or a know it all when you state these things on gumtree or Facebook forums but there are either ignorant and just trying to make a buck or genuinely don't know enough and are willing to learn

#18 Chris Perth

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 01:25 PM

it comes down to being a hobbyist or a cash grab
you are either an ethical hobbyist that wants to learn and develop in your hobby
or you don't care, believe you know everything because that is what you bought
them as and so can never be wrong as it's against their ego.
They live with a closed mind while only interested in trying to make money
 
you can't educate someone that has no ethics or doesn't want to learn


Can't say that I agree with this rigid viewpoint that you are either an ethical hobbyist or you don't care. There are many, many, ethical breeders out there, my self included, who started as hobbyists and are now, or have been, recoginised as breeders of quality stock over many years, who also make substantial money from the trade. And have helped maintain species in the hobby , that without their efforts (Australia wide) could have been lost forever.

The idea of 'an acredited breeder' has merit though I think implementation and policing of such a scheme would be very costly and time consuming to maintain. And its relevance to the people who "don't care" would be lost.

#19 John McCormick

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 01:18 PM

Can't say that I agree with this rigid viewpoint that you are either an ethical hobbyist or you don't care. There are many, many, ethical breeders out there, my self included, who started as hobbyists and are now, or have been, recoginised as breeders of quality stock over many years, who also make substantial money from the trade. And have helped maintain species in the hobby , that without their efforts (Australia wide) could have been lost forever.

The idea of 'an acredited breeder' has merit though I think implementation and policing of such a scheme would be very costly and time consuming to maintain. And its relevance to the people who "don't care" would be lost.

I can't see why you wouldn't agree with Link2Hell"s comment, if you are an ethical cichlid breeder then you won't have hybrids, therefore you care.

If you have hybrids and happily pass them off as pure species, you are then an unethical breeder and therefore don't care, simples.

The cash grab he was referring to was the unethical breeders taking the easy way out by flooding the market with hybrids and making a pretty penny whilst they are at it..

It's an argument that's not going away anytime soon and is one that we have been having for as long as I can remember 40 odd years for me.

It is people like yourself, "ethical breeders", that we need to keep producing true species for us to have any chance of the younger generation of cichlid keepers to be keeping cichlids that actually look like the ones in the text books.

As you say in your last sentence, "people who don't care", well, they just don't.

Cheers,

John.



#20 Rodders02

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 03:46 PM

If you have hybrids and are listing them for sale you are most likely new to the hobby and are just getting into it, but have very little to no knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. But from looking over at how I've reacted in the past to this issue, which is to blatantly get angry at the seller/breeder, which is good in a way as there are no hybrids, but it also pushes away new people from entering the hobby. As I said, Almost everyone who breeds and sells these hybrids would have little knowledge of what they're doing and instead of aggressively reacting to the situation by threatening the seller/breeder, we can embrace it, give them a friendly heads up that it's not good and introduce them to other fish. People react better when you act kindly and in turn that would probably give them more insentive to stop with the hybrids and become part of the greater hobby.

I know a lot of people probably won't agree with this but it's just my personal view on the situation.

Edited by Rodders02, 12 February 2017 - 03:49 PM.





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