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#21 Chris Perth

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 04:29 PM

John McCormick, I think we were at cross purposes here, Link2Hells post to me, seemed to imply that you are one or the other, an ethical hobbiest or cash grabber, and therefore can not be both, so my reply was in response to that view. On reflection, your interpretation is possibly more in tune with his intent, and with which I agree. I guess the big question is, if after 40 years of us (you, me & other ethical breeders) trying to educate people, what is it that we are not doing right, that the message is not getting through?

#22 Rodders02

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 06:10 PM

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Edited by Rodders02, 12 February 2017 - 09:21 PM.


#23 malawiman85

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 07:55 PM

The problem has always been there. I don't think they do it for the purpose of making money really... They just end up with fry from a mixed species tank and don't even consider culling because they are stoked to have babies *YAY*. Fishkeepers like to rubbish anyone that makes money... So here we are again pretending that another of the hobby's problems are because of someone making money... Its stuffing ridiculous.

 

Also, who says that flogging hybrids is wrong? I understand of course the consequences of what they do same as you do but the point is they aren't doing anything that they perceive as being wrong because they don't see the hobby as a lifetime interest... The big picture to them is the mixed display tank in their lounge room.

 

No point telling them they're wrong, most simply don't have the right perspective to make sense of it.

 

Interesting though that PCS Forum participation rates seem to be considerably down on 6 + years ago (Same as all forums)... Maybe the problem has become worse since forums lost the ability to so readily influence new/casual hobbyists.



#24 Rodders02

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 09:19 PM

Exactly, couldn't have said it better

#25 Delapool

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 09:32 PM

I guess as someone who really only knows a few cichlids and has kept even less - what are the best ways to avoid buying hybrids? Of course if I had time I'd post a photo or buy at certain shops but say I'm in a friend of a friends fish room and he says do you want some x,y,z. Is there any way to pick some signs of a hybrid for new beginners? I believe in the US they sell tanks of mixed cichlids (or something labelled like that which just seems to be asking for trouble).

Given the choice I wouldn't buy hybrids as personal presence but as a complete newby, I (like some other fish keepers) I know could easily go wrong.


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#26 Chris Perth

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 10:50 PM

As far as spotting hybreds, I would suggest that only the very experienced, would be able to do with ease. I acknowledge that it is not an easy thing to spot when very new to the hobby and as others have said it is easy to be drawn in by a different looking fish.
My humble advice would be to research pics on the internet to get a good sense of what your 'new' fish should look like for a start. Secondly try to suss out a member breeder, or specialst aquarium shop - if buying privately check out the parents, and if they are in a separate species tank or all mixed in a community tank.
Others can no doubt add more tips

#27 dicky7

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 12:25 PM

You can also borrow any books from the PCS  library as you are a PCS member

 

Also you could ask members to come with you if they are available

 

Cheers

Rich



#28 John McCormick

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 06:54 PM

John McCormick, I think we were at cross purposes here, Link2Hells post to me, seemed to imply that you are one or the other, an ethical hobbiest or cash grabber, and therefore can not be both, so my reply was in response to that view. On reflection, your interpretation is possibly more in tune with his intent, and with which I agree. I guess the big question is, if after 40 years of us (you, me & other ethical breeders) trying to educate people, what is it that we are not doing right, that the message is not getting through?


Hi Chris,
Trying to understand what people are actually meaning to say in what they have written is quite often a mine field and has caused many a dispute that should never have existed in the first place, we come across it all the time on this wonderful media that we all indulge in.
I think what is happening with "fish keepers" is a lot of them just see colours and shapes and quite often this is all they care about, which quite often leads them to wondering what you will get if you cross fish A with fish B.
I guess mankind has been doing just that with just about every living thing for many, many centuries.
I think all we can do is what we have been doing and hope to save the species that we have that are still true.

#29 tropheus

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 08:35 PM

The problem has always been there. I don't think they do it for the purpose of making money really... They just end up with fry from a mixed species tank and don't even consider culling because they are stoked to have babies *YAY*. Fishkeepers like to rubbish anyone that makes money... So here we are again pretending that another of the hobby's problems are because of someone making money... Its stuffing ridiculous.
 
Also, who says that flogging hybrids is wrong? I understand of course the consequences of what they do same as you do but the point is they aren't doing anything that they perceive as being wrong because they don't see the hobby as a lifetime interest... The big picture to them is the mixed display tank in their lounge room.
 
No point telling them they're wrong, most simply don't have the right perspective to make sense of it.
 
Interesting though that PCS Forum participation rates seem to be considerably down on 6 + years ago (Same as all forums)... Maybe the problem has become worse since forums lost the ability to so readily influence new/casual hobbyists.

Nailed it!
Most "hobbyists" don't fit into either camp (ethical breeder or cash grabber). It is ignorant people (and I do mean this in the nicest way possible) and newbies that fill their tanks with "pretty" fish and get babies they are excited about. They usually wouldn't know one species from another, so you can't blame them, or the fish for that matter (they don't know what contraception is, or how to control their hormones lol).
So they grow up babies (who enjoys culling? I don't. And thankfully I've never needed to worry about crossbreeds. So put yourself in their unknowing shoes...).
So, they grow up the fish and then need to get rid of them because they run out of space or whatever, so they try and make a couple of bucks on gumtree to supplement the costs of being in the hobby...
Can u blame them? No
Can u educate them? Depends on how u approach the topic.
Having a go at them would only make them more stubborn. Some people won't care, but the majority would do the right thing if they were given feedback in a constructive manner, rather than the typical know it all attitude that is often displayed (perhaps unknowingly). I'm not pointing the finger at anyone. I'm just saying that it is easy to appear elitist to the uneducated.
Flowerhorns anyone? Lol

Btw, where do you guys sit with line-bred variants? Discus or goldfish are a great examples... but there are so many species that are line-bred.
I'm a bit of a purist. I much prefer the natural colours and appearance of most fish in the trade.
Goldfish are probably the only exception, but they have been line-bred for over a thousand years and hardly resemble the species they originally came from.


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#30 Chris Perth

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:39 AM

Don't get me started LOL 'Hood' and I had somewhat of a heated discussion on this topic on another thread. Like them or not, they are here to stay as mankind has never been able to resist the urge to tinker with nature or the natural order of things.

On a personal level I prefer the original discus, angels etc though it is hard to argue against the stunning colouration of some of the aquarium varieties. My concern, like always, is that like Hybrids some where down the track we are never going to be sure what we are purchasing? I.e is this 'Calico' bn I am about to buy, the offspring of a pair of calico's, or a calico and a common, or calico and lemon and when I breed them what mix am I going to get. etc. Please don't all jump down my throat - I am playing the Devils advocate here!

 

And my confession is that I do breed ,calico, lemon and common bns but all in separate breeding  tanks. so no mixing of the strains.

Oh and a word of caution - there are by definition, differences between 'Line' breeding, 'selective' breeding and 'cross' breeding.

 

I know I really shouldn't post this as I am going to get rained on from a great height  LOL



#31 Hood

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:48 PM

Don't get me started LOL 'Hood' and I had somewhat of a heated discussion on this topic on another thread. Like them or not, they are here to stay as mankind has never been able to resist the urge to tinker with nature or the natural order of things.
On a personal level I prefer the original discus, angels etc though it is hard to argue against the stunning colouration of some of the aquarium varieties. My concern, like always, is that like Hybrids some where down the track we are never going to be sure what we are purchasing? I.e is this 'Calico' bn I am about to buy, the offspring of a pair of calico's, or a calico and a common, or calico and lemon and when I breed them what mix am I going to get. etc. Please don't all jump down my throat - I am playing the Devils advocate here!
 
And my confession is that I do breed ,calico, lemon and common bns but all in separate breeding  tanks. so no mixing of the strains.
Oh and a word of caution - there are by definition, differences between 'Line' breeding, 'selective' breeding and 'cross' breeding.
 
I know I really shouldn't post this as I am going to get rained on from a great height  LOL

I'll hold my tongue.

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#32 Westie

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:02 PM

^ chicken....



#33 Poncho

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:11 PM

Perhaps the PCS could draw up a suggested price guide for pure breeds. I put the idea forward for the next committee meeting for discussion.


We did discuss this at committee guys but in future, if you want something discussed at committee, best to message or get in touch with a committee member directly. There's no guarantee we are going to pick up such requests in the guts of a post.

Anyway, this wasn't something we felt was a priority for us. There's limited time available for committee members to do stuff for the club and that time is usually spent organising meetings, managing membership details etc etc.

If someone else wants to implement this idea and create the guide, feel free.




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