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Koi Herpes Virus


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#41 Androo

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Posted 09 May 2016 - 11:11 PM

^^^ 261 pages of fun

(Aaaaand my comment goes on the next page 😒)

#42 Den

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Posted 09 May 2016 - 11:35 PM

Someone mentioned carp farming / Charlie carp. I read articles where these guys favor the release of the virus, they seem to think all the fish are going to magically float to the surface after they die, these guys and the people working on the clean up better get used to the idea of the majority of the fish could sink to the bottom or get caught up in wooden snags, from what I can see the places where it was tested was in lakes with no trees around, so dead fish could be easily collected, this wont be the case in our rivers which are mostly snag riddled waters full of branches. Also many wont start floating until they start to decay, at which point charlie carp cannot use them, they said they need them within 48 hours AD. Anyway who fancies spraying their gardens with fish infected by virus? and swimming, fishing, skiing, boating, drinking, who wants to use these waterways once its full of this virus? its perfectly safe "probably", hey call me ignorant, I don't care, the idea of it just doesn't turn me on.


Edited by Den, 09 May 2016 - 11:39 PM.


#43 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 01:07 AM

Dear bigjohnnofish, I did not make a personal attack on you. My comments weren't childish. I walked away because you didnt get the problem even after explaining it to heaps. My credentials are posted above. Now please stop quoting me. Your own views expressed through your comments belittled you. I simply asked you read about it. Now please stop embarrassing yourself further.

your sort of comments are better suited to the keyboard warriors on facebook... we dont have a block function so i'll just ignore your belittlement and child like behaviour after all this a forum not a squabble on facebook :)



#44 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 01:42 AM

Johnno, the scenario proposed by the OP, (or a vet whom he claims told him), wherein a water bird transmits CHV to an aquaculture facility, is so unlikely as to be infinitesimally small. Consider: the bird needs to be in water with a high virus particle count, then transfer a quantity of that water within a relatively short time to an aquaculture pond. Then the virus has to be transferred to the pond inhabitants before becoming inactivated. CHV,like all infective agents has a minimal infective dose, and the chance of this dose being realised in this scenario is unlikely, if not  impossible. 

Syd.

 

i can see your logic here... but we know gambusia are spread by water birds... as gambusia isnt the targeted fish it will obviously survive carrying the virus in its travels... i can personally say i have had glass shrimp turn up in my pond 4-5 years ago all by themselves - i never introduced any plants or new fish where they could have hitched a ride in... so its a fair conclusion water bird(s) brought them in.... you find gambusia in nearly every river , dam , lake , drain etc in WA.. im pretty certain the government didnt stock them all :)

 

i also noticed den posted virus will survive in water droplets without a host for up to 2 days - also makes me think virus transmission to untargeted places will occur much more often than you suggest syd..... long distances wont be achieved obviously but how long will it take to hop skip and jump from water source to water source 

 

so i have to disagree with you that the possibility of water bird transfer of this virus being virtually impossible... it is a lot greater than you suggest... gambusia being the host - another one of the failures of exotic introductions :)

 

also i believe the calicivirus was being tested on rabbits on an island - and it escaped and made its way to the mainland ? wasnt it blamed on a waterbird ? 

 

 

 

 I am assuming that your suggestion to employ dole recipients to remove significant numbers of carp was made tongue-in-cheek.

 

well i wouldnt say employ - they are already being paid by the govt... to keep being paid you must work a set number of hours catching carp under the supervision of a fisheries officer or similar... or go find another job and stop claiming social security... imagine the size of the work force as there is epic unemployment happening at the moment... 

 

but i like the way your thinking jason.... be a good job.... plus if you educate more people on the problem im sure you'll get volunteers as well :)  this is something china would do - as they know man power wlll solve the problem and they have plenty of resources here....



#45 Tarpon

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 08:10 AM

3. Viruses can mutate - what long term studies can prove it wont mutate in 10 to 50 years to attack other fish or other animals, birds, people? When it reaches its peak saturation and you have virus rich waters, and reduced number of carp hosts, can a mutation jump to new hosts? Did you ever hear of swine flu or bird flu? viruses jumping hosts is not a new thing, maybe our government is jealous of these other countries having dangerous viruses skipping from animals to people, I guess a new fish flu epidemic could put us Aussies on the map!

 

 

 

I agree

I remember a Will Smith documentary a few years ago where they showed that a virus used to cure cancer ended up turning people into albino zombies



#46 chocky

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 08:17 AM

and in other news...

https://youtu.be/Mdug6rEAiBw

#47 malawiman85

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 08:24 AM

:-o

#48 Westie

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 12:44 PM

 

I agree

I remember a Will Smith documentary a few years ago where they showed that a virus used to cure cancer ended up turning people into albino zombies

 

Cheeky yet extremely funny. Well played sir!



#49 Den

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 04:16 PM

Here's a blog from Dr Loh fish vet;

 

https://thefishvet.c...as-khv-release/

 

You can joke about this all you want but this virus is known to spread like a wild fire once its out there, read the vector listed Dr Loh :Vectors (e.g. birds, amphibian, introduction of other fish species), equipment, water, personnel, fish (carriers, and diseased). If you have a pond full of expensive koi you wont be laughing when they get wiped out.


Edited by Den, 19 June 2016 - 03:52 PM.


#50 malawiman85

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 06:02 PM

Den,

The article should be placed in context though. The context being that there is some risk to farmed koi.
Yep no doubt there is some risk... dont know how much and I'm not about to provide some arbitrary figure to make my point.
I think the majority of arguments for the relase of the virus is environmental benefit.
80% of the murray river biomass is carp. Environmentally, does that not scare the shit out of you? Is controlling this problem a political stunt in your opinion or does it perhaps seem like the right thing to do?
I, for the life of me, cannot understand how the financial impact to a few hobbyists can even be credibly uttered in argument against the main reason for introducing the virus.
Another point on this being a "political stunt:" Remind me again how years of CSIRO research and subsequently the recommendation of releasing this virus is politically motivated. The politician might be motivated by headlines but the scientist isnt. Scientists arent about newspapers, they are about peer review, prestige and getting things right... A political stunt doesnt add up.

Edited by malawiman85, 10 May 2016 - 06:31 PM.


#51 Den

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 12:02 AM

Den,

The article should be placed in context though. The context being that there is some risk to farmed koi.
Yep no doubt there is some risk... dont know how much and I'm not about to provide some arbitrary figure to make my point.
I think the majority of arguments for the relase of the virus is environmental benefit.
80% of the murray river biomass is carp. Environmentally, does that not scare the shit out of you? Is controlling this problem a political stunt in your opinion or does it perhaps seem like the right thing to do?
I, for the life of me, cannot understand how the financial impact to a few hobbyists can even be credibly uttered in argument against the main reason for introducing the virus.
Another point on this being a "political stunt:" Remind me again how years of CSIRO research and subsequently the recommendation of releasing this virus is politically motivated. The politician might be motivated by headlines but the scientist isnt. Scientists arent about newspapers, they are about peer review, prestige and getting things right... A political stunt doesnt add up.

 

The reasons I am against it are simple, they admit it themselves it wont work. They are not addressing the true causes of the carp population issue, there are many articles on the history on this problem which explain that carp populations exploded in areas were the environment had been changed and/or damaged by human interference - the natives disappeared (or weren't there in the first place i.e man made irrigation canals) and then the carp move into the free space as they are more tolerant of poorer water quality.

 

I don't mean to disrespect scientists but they are working for a paycheck like anyone else, if you pay a scientist to prove global warming exists, they will find you evidence it exists, if you pay a scientist to prove global warming doesn't exist, they will find you evidence it doesn't exist, they will work to fill as best they can the objectives of their paymaster and there is a lot of dodgy science out there because of this, anyway read what their scientists say themselves, its a plan that's not guaranteed to work, in fact they go further and admit it wont eradicate them.



#52 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 02:36 AM

80% of the murray river biomass is carp. Environmentally, does that not scare the shit out of you? Is controlling this problem a political stunt in your opinion or does it perhaps seem like the right thing to do?
 

 

why dont they farm and raise a truck load of murray cod (natural predator) and release them back into the river to start eating carp... carp obviously prospered more when people fished out the majority of murray cod....  had murray cod fingerlings be raised and grown up 7 years ago they would be a significant size now and would eat a truck load of carp...  and perhaps put a tempory ban on murray cod fishing ??? could have even netted carp from the river to feed cod fingerlings :) be ready food prepped for carp :)

 

virus introduction just doesnt seem like the right thing to do... 



#53 sydad

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 10:59 AM

@ Johnno.

 

Not a new idea. Attempts to increase murray cod populations have been made on several occasions, but have not met with significant success. This is probably because the cod fail to thrive in the muddy sludge that most of the waterways in the MDB have become.

 

One success, or rather partial success was the introduction of murray cod into Lake Burley Griffin after carp were found there, but before the carp had time to degrade the lake to any great extent.The cod did a reasonable job of controlling carp populations for a time; I am not aware of the current situation as my contact died a few years ago, and I have not pursued the matter. The subject was also of interest to ANGFA, and was a topic of discussion at an ANGFA convention in the early 2000s.

 

One thing my contact did emphasize: the cod that obviously consumed carp (they were large, overweight and ugly) were as inedible as the carp as they appeared to be flavoured by them, so cod from that source are probably not highly regarded as food. On this topic, there are several web sites that  claim that carp can be treated in a way that makes them acceptable eating.I would take a LOT of convincing that this was possible. I have eaten carp (more tried to eat) on several occasions, and which had been prepared by "experts". Although the last time was some years ago I can still taste the revolting bloody things...never again!

 

One comment Johnno, you really need to get some more sleep. Insomnia(?) appears to be affecting your judgement :P

 

@ Den

 

Your view of scientists is insulting. Of much more concern than "dodgy science", is the misrepresentation of scientific findings by bureaucrats and self interested parties. And by the way, no scientist has ever, or would ever, claim that biological controls eliminate environmental problems engendered by invasive species, but rather that those controls, at best,  ameliorate the worst of the problem. The cane toad introduction was an exception, and as noted earlier, was a bureaucratic decision made against scientific advice.

 

Syd.


Edited by sydad, 11 May 2016 - 11:11 AM.


#54 Den

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 05:15 PM

More scientists coming out against this, heres a new article;

 

http://www.abc.net.a...ageddon/7405048

 

Dr Braysher basically says its a waste of time and money, within 10 years we will still have carp population back but horribly deformed and virus infected, how nice, we will be stuck with the virus for ever.

 

Once the virus is released, it can't be removed. From the moment of the release, expected to be late 2017 or early 2018, there will always be herpes in Australian carp.

There will also always be carp. It's estimated within 10 years the virus-resistant fish will breed up to 60 per cent of the current population.

That means in 10 years time we'll still have a carp problem, and the carp will have a herpes problem.

Dr Braysher says the carp are here to stay.

"No established pest in Australia has ever been eradicated," he says.

He says river health and native fish stocks had begun to decline well before carp began to dominate the Murray-Darling river basin in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Getting rid of carp will create a window of opportunity, before they breed back up, to improve river health and native fish stocks to prevent carp once again dominating the system.

To do this, we have to do more than blame the carp, he says. We have to look more closely at politically-sensitive things like agriculture.

 

Syd, if you don't agree with my statement just google "corruption money and science", you will find hundreds of papers on it.


Edited by Den, 12 May 2016 - 02:21 PM.


#55 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 02:55 AM

it is a pity that money corrupts so many things... so im not the least bit surprised... 

 

and syd insomnia isnt a problem - when i go to bed i sleep well.... google says more intelligent people go to bed later then non intelligent people... it does if you ask it :) i guess if you googled the opposite you'd get that answer too.... pretty irrelevant to the topic :)

 

cant say i've tasted carp syd but i have eaten stingray flaps from dirty old big ray caught off the beach up greenheads way some time ago.... my slav mate soaked it in half milk half vinegar mix overnight in the fridge and then added some secret herbs and spices and to be honest if i didnt know it was stingray i would say it was a top shelf reef fish of some sort... tasted that good :)

 

cant they genetically modify the murray cod to grow bigger quicker and eat more carp :)



#56 malawiman85

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 10:11 AM

One last thing for me in response to the expert opinions linked in objecting to the virus:
I have read a lot of peer reviewed studies of the virus.
All the papers I have reviewed are highly consistant. There is a huge amount of academic content primarily from Europe, Asia and the US where this virus has been present and studied in lab conditions, aquaculture and in uncontrolled natural environments for more than a decade.
Other than being theoretically pretty much impossible, as explained by Bostave, for the virus to mutate and infect non target species there is still no evidence anywhere on the planet that the virus, even anecdotal, has infected any non target species at any point since the virus was officially reported in '98 - '99.
There has definitely been significant damage to cultured common carp and koi industries in affected countries. The cause of transmission is thought to be from koi shows, trade and (in the case of common carp aquaculture) addition of newly introduced/wild brood stock with poor hygeine/husbandry standards.
The virus is impossible to detect without scientific assistance in carriers of the virus who have become immune to lethal challenges of the virus and also in particularly cold and hot conditions where the virus essentially gives up trying to reproduce but remains present and ready to reproduce under better conditions (temps of viral inactivity are still considered very much tolerable for carp/koi).
I believe there is a not insignificant risk to koi breeders but not from water birds. The risk would come from poor hygeine which of course can be controlled.
Bird netting is very, very cheap if concerns remain about the ability of the virus to be transferred to your pond by birds.

I'm no expert on the matter but it is easy to see that the real experts (people that have scientifically studied the virus, not random blokes with an opinion AND potentially significant financial interests) all agree in the behaviour, potential and risk involved with the virus both naturally occurring and when used for carpageddon.

Bring on the supersized carp eating cod too though!

Edited by malawiman85, 12 May 2016 - 10:13 AM.


#57 sydad

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 01:00 PM

it is a pity that money corrupts so many things... so im not the least bit surprised... 

 

and syd insomnia isnt a problem - when i go to bed i sleep well.... google says more intelligent people go to bed later then non intelligent people... it does if you ask it :) i guess if you googled the opposite you'd get that answer too.... pretty irrelevant to the topic :)

 

cant say i've tasted carp syd but i have eaten stingray flaps from dirty old big ray caught off the beach up greenheads way some time ago.... my slav mate soaked it in half milk half vinegar mix overnight in the fridge and then added some secret herbs and spices and to be honest if i didnt know it was stingray i would say it was a top shelf reef fish of some sort... tasted that good :)

 

cant they genetically modify the murray cod to grow bigger quicker and eat more carp :)

 

As a scientist myself, who has worked with many others, and knowing many more, it is my experience that they are among the most ethical people I know. Of course there will be the occasional bad apple, but this I feel does not justify the tarring with a broad brush as I consider Den has done.

 

As for the insomnia bit, I note that you are often up even later than I am; I'm at the stage (age?) where it makes me a bit dozy at times.

 

Yep, I've eaten stingray too, and believe me it is absolutely delicious compared with carp, though i would not call it really good eating; but then I'm no fish cooking expert.

 

As for genetic modification of cod, I am in no position to make a judgement on such. i would imagine it could be done, even if only by long-term selective breeding. The problem here is that any perceived success would bring the anti-change nutters out in force, and you know how that goes.It could be worthwhile asking the researchers at a Govt research facility such as Snob's creek if it is a possibility: I'll see if I can find out.

Just as a matter of interest, murray cod grow to a rather large size anyhow, though I gather that it is not a fast process.

 

Syd



#58 malawiman85

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 01:57 PM

Typically ~25cm in 12 months.
Part of the problem is insufficient resources at the lower end of the food chain (in part due to habitat modification/destruction and in part due to carp) which in turn creates a higher level of cannabalism than would normally be the case.

It will be interesting to see what role murray cod have, if any, in the governments plan to control carp. I wonder if there will be a significantly different stocking program put in place of if murray cod fishing rules will be tightened temporarily.
Interestingly too, I have often observed cod kill goldfish and koi out of intolerance with no real Interest in eating them but with any other feeders ive used (natives, guppies, cichlids, tetras, etc) will only kill them to eat.

#59 Den

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 02:34 PM

Syd your living in a fantasy world if you don't believe money and your employers objectives doesn't effect the science. If your getting paid to prove a certain theory that's what you will work on, if you go off on a tangent you will risk being fired, money can direct science, its a pretty simple fact of life that everyone knows, doesnt matter which job you are in, you do what your boss wants, science is no different.

 

Anyway I hope somehow we can stop this from happening, science already tells us in 10 years time we will still have the same carp problem, but it will be with virus infected carp, so its a complete waste of time and money.



#60 malawiman85

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 05:28 PM

Scientists dont normally get paid to prove anything. They get paid to further understand something. Normally the contribution to advancments by a single scientist or even a team of scientists is quite small and is only possible based on the efforts of scientists that have gone before them. If the science is no good, the scientists are rubbished by their peers and reputations are forever shot!
As has been stated some douche bags (politicians and big business) spin the facts to sound good but the science isnt necessarily bad its just presented badly. Any ways im agreeing to disagree.




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