87 replies to this topic

[ruffaz]

does any one know of any shops that are bringing or selling theses beauties i sold a couple just before xmas and miss them im worried i wont be able to score any more.

or does any one know were i can get them from over east are they allowed to be imported in to wa ?

[Anka]

Go to your LFS, or ring some of the sponsors, and ask if they can source them for you.

I was in City Farmerss in Joondalup a few months ago and they had a baby one in a display tank. It said on the tank that the little fellas wasn't for sale but that they could order them in. Of course you would prefer to buy from a specialist store (especially a sponsor) so give them a call first

Edit: Spelling

Edited by Anka, 10 September 2012 - 08:50 PM.

[Buccal]

Rays will never make it into shops. Breeders have a very tight control of their value and avaliability. This keeps them rare and well wanted.
It's a very small niche. Just knowing and having the access to ray breeders and their ray pups is very hard to come by.

[K.v]

so you are allowed them?

[Buccal]

Absolutely, can't bring them into oz from overseas, but ones that are already here are perfectly fine. The only blacklisted ray in oz which isn't in oz anyway, is the discus ray.

[bigjohnnofish]

Rays will never make it into shops. Breeders have a very tight control of their value and avaliability. This keeps them rare and well wanted.
It's a very small niche. Just knowing and having the access to ray breeders and their ray pups is very hard to come by.

not hard to come by IMO... just the cash is hard to come by!!!.... just they dont breed like flies... making numbers low.... leopoldis may only breed 1-3 times a year and have low pup numbers..

more and more people are breeding them... price has come down considerably in past few years...

[Peckoltia]

This good thing about rays and many catfish is low numbers when breeding so the price never bottoms out. Unlike cichlids, the latest and greatest Malawi at 100a pop is 8bucks the following week!

[bigjohnnofish]

well said... price drops but never crashes which is good for all concerned... if a fish becomes worthless you can bet it will slowly disappear....

[SamJohns]

Like RTC or TSN? Or just ones we can breed?

[Buccal]

The Motoro has actually dropped in availability lately especially over east for they have just got to a point where the value has lowered to much. People don't want to breed them when it costs far to much to keep them in relation to what they can sell for. And the decision to buy and breed is deterred because its not considered as rare and valuable. So all ray species are being held back and I see that breeders are being much more careful about the distribution of ray pups. I believe it is our duty not to bargain hunt to intensely as this is what drives them out of existence. It's a small market for rays and easy to flood, so the desperation of not being able to house all the pups leaves the breeder having to make some tough decisions not in the best interest of ray keeping. Middle men can take advantage of this and add to depreciation especially if buyers know what middle men are getting them for. So really we should all dig deep for those wanting rays and not haggle price in order to keep this sector thriving.

[Jules]

So most ray keepers are all about making money and breeding over east?
if i had my rays for 10 years and not 1 pup produced i wouldnt not be disappointed or upset at all, these are the coolest animal i have ever owned (and sadly based on what we cant keep here - will be the best)
At the end of the day if some one wants something, they are going to pay for it.

Sam, I would love to own a TSN!!!

[Peckoltia]

I'm pretty hungry, I wouldn't mind a nice TSN fillet!

[Buccal]

So most ray keepers are all about making money and breeding over east?
if i had my rays for 10 years and not 1 pup produced i wouldnt not be disappointed or upset at all, these are the coolest animal i have ever owned (and sadly based on what we cant keep here - will be the best)
At the end of the day if some one wants something, they are going to pay for it.

Sam, I would love to own a TSN!!!

People are holding on to their pups now and waiting for a WTB to show up. Also when people decide on what species of anything to keep, sometimes the reproduction and value for selling plays a big part. It actually scares most breeders to see what has happened to the value of rays. I talk talk to three or four breeders on a regular basis about this.
When anyone talks about their personal love for rays and rejects the facts it still doesn't do the ray population in oz any favors.
Not all ray keepers are about making money, but a lot are. You dont necessarily have to be worried about making money to care about their value, a lot of things on this forum keeps getting put out of context with narrow thoughts.
I know two 50/50 Leo moto breeders east and they are holding back with them, even the 25/75 breeders are holding back to. Moto breeders have thinned right out with nearly nothing around. 1.5 years ago moto was freakin everywhere.
There are many repeated wtb showing now. I should know all of this because I myself have a large batch of pups I bred and no way will I let them go in this climate, I'm keeping them. As I have been encouraged by east breeders but I already feel this way.
And qoute, (if someone wants something they will pay for it), hah no way, nearly every fish hobbiest has a thousand dreams of having stuff they can't afford.

Edited by Buccal, 12 September 2012 - 04:48 PM.

[ruffaz]

What scares me is the fact some hobbiest are in it for the money and not the hobby what has killed tank busters in perth and possibly australia is the fact that hobbies or breaders cant make top dollor of perfticular species of fish not the fact that people dont or cant care for them

[Buccal]

This is wrong, most tank buster keepers are collectors, breeding is only done by a few with massive breeding setup, usually aquaculture pond type even almost commercial set ups. Mainly this is done east because mass water is needed and to costly to heat. Really breeding of most tank busters has always been money driven. Eg, mono pbass are absolute cash cows, and are very popular at this minute oz wide.
Generally it's the professional breeders that are money driven (plenty money driven breeders have passion to) are the ones that actually produce the more quality stuff, because it's more elaborate and calculated not to mention organized. It's gives better quality control.
It's the favorite pets that just so happens to breed is sometimes the random poor outcomes that finds its way around.
Most of you that have only got into fish three to four years ago don't fully realize just how booming the aquarium fish industry was.
Things have lessened absolutely dramatically due to reasons that have been discussed here before. Electricity, the initial scare of the down turn and hard times of inflation. Now, the tank busters that has always been a small market, is the first hit. It's much cheaper and easier to keep Mbuna. Little loan a 10x3x3 with heating and pump and setup costs. Also tank busters has taken hits with added contents to the noxious list. Ones little personal thoughts are so insignificant to the grand over all sceme of things. Also what is not realized by one that is green to all this, is that species popularity always runs in cycles. Tangs are so out ATM, give it a year or two and they will be in again. Very large scale breeders know this, and fish aren't given up when popularity decreases, they are held onto till they come round again in the next cycle(most of these breeders are money driven to). We can all have our say, but the long term for life fisho's that have been in this for a long time are the ones who really know under all that fighting and criticism that I have seen go on, LOL.

[danotaylor]

I'm pretty hungry, I wouldn't mind a nice TSN fillet!

a tragically delicious meal

[Peckoltia]

My mangrove jack annihilated a big venustus today, was looking at it... Realized I had used meds in the tank not long ago, so he got an honorable burial.

Buccal; out of interest, in your opinion, what is a fair price for a motoro pup? For buyer and seller alike.

[Buccal]

I'm glad you asked dude, I believe that they should have bottomed out at $450 each for average standard moto
And the noticeable better quality triple spot moto for a minimum of $650 each
It doesn't seem that long ago when the standard moto were $1200 each and held this price for ages. It only takes one or two breeders or sellers to create a landslide price drop. What are your thoughts on my price recommendation ? Still affordable you think ?

[Peckoltia]

I think that is fair. Considering the amount of food that adult stingrays consume and the cost at this amount when your feeding quality. I'm always happy to pay extra for quality.

[ruffaz]

This is wrong, most tank buster keepers are collectors, breeding is only done by a few with massive breeding setup, usually aquaculture pond type even almost commercial set ups. Mainly this is done east because mass water is needed and to costly to heat. Really breeding of most tank busters has always been money driven. Eg, mono pbass are absolute cash cows, and are very popular at this minute oz wide.
Generally it's the professional breeders that are money driven (plenty money driven breeders have passion to) are the ones that actually produce the more quality stuff, because it's more elaborate and calculated not to mention organized. It's gives better quality control.
It's the favorite pets that just so happens to breed is sometimes the random poor outcomes that finds its way around.
Most of you that have only got into fish three to four years ago don't fully realize just how booming the aquarium fish industry was.
Things have lessened absolutely dramatically due to reasons that have been discussed here before. Electricity, the initial scare of the down turn and hard times of inflation. Now, the tank busters that has always been a small market, is the first hit. It's much cheaper and easier to keep Mbuna. Little loan a 10x3x3 with heating and pump and setup costs. Also tank busters has taken hits with added contents to the noxious list. Ones little personal thoughts are so insignificant to the grand over all sceme of things. Also what is not realized by one that is green to all this, is that species popularity always runs in cycles. Tangs are so out ATM, give it a year or two and they will be in again. Very large scale breeders know this, and fish aren't given up when popularity decreases, they are held onto till they come round again in the next cycle(most of these breeders are money driven to). We can all have our say, but the long term for life fisho's that have been in this for a long time are the ones who really know under all that fighting and criticism that I have seen go on, LOL.

you may be right but and i was not aiming what i said at any one in generall but i can name a few traders that sold there breeding stock of a perticular species arfter they flooded the market right here in perth one of them admitted making 10,000 to me said that i cant get anough for them now so ill breed something else lol i was just generlising here

we could go on all day but look at the price of some of the l numbers.

lets look at british bull dogs do you think 2500 for a pet only pup is keeping the lines clean and pure or breeders just protecting there investment ?

I have no quams with people making money from there hobby who would not wont to benifitt from there hobby in some way,what gets me is no transperancy from some indivudials who claim there are all for the hobby and the rerspect of fish dont give anything back to the fish community under cut the lfs and try and screw you down on price by saying its a buyers market not a sellers market its theses types of breeders or traders that ruin it for the real pasionate ones who arnt in it for the monerity gain.

I'm glad you asked dude, I believe that they should have bottomed out at $450 each for average standard moto
And the noticeable better quality triple spot moto for a minimum of $650 each
It doesn't seem that long ago when the standard moto were $1200 each and held this price for ages. It only takes one or two breeders or sellers to create a landslide price drop. What are your thoughts on my price recommendation ? Still affordable you think ?

just to put it in perspective i brought my original pair for 1500 but sold them for 800 it wasnt about the money for me but this might seem weired but it was about some one appreciating what they were