87 replies to this topic

[Buccal]

Yep, my thoughts to.

[bigjohnnofish]

you say the price of motos has dropped... fair enough - more common... this is when you move onto the next ray species... black diamond leopoldis

if your lucky you can get a male in australia for 10k...... if your lucky enough for a breeder to let go of a female i'd expect you'd pay 15k maybe.... pair would have to be 20-25k......

heres a quick look at what i'd like.... moneys in the bank if someone wants to part with these rays....

http://topstingray.c...-black-diamond/

but i only want quality as in the above link... dont try and sell me crap as i wont buy it

[Jules]

People are holding on to their pups now and waiting for a WTB to show up. Also when people decide on what species of anything to keep, sometimes the reproduction and value for selling plays a big part. It actually scares most breeders to see what has happened to the value of rays. I talk talk to three or four breeders on a regular basis about this.
When anyone talks about their personal love for rays and rejects the facts it still doesn't do the ray population in oz any favors.
Not all ray keepers are about making money, but a lot are. You dont necessarily have to be worried about making money to care about their value, a lot of things on this forum keeps getting put out of context with narrow thoughts.
I know two 50/50 Leo moto breeders east and they are holding back with them, even the 25/75 breeders are holding back to. Moto breeders have thinned right out with nearly nothing around. 1.5 years ago moto was freakin everywhere.
There are many repeated wtb showing now. I should know all of this because I myself have a large batch of pups I bred and no way will I let them go in this climate, I'm keeping them. As I have been encouraged by east breeders but I already feel this way.
And qoute, (if someone wants something they will pay for it), hah no way, nearly every fish hobbiest has a thousand dreams of having stuff they can't afford.

right now there will be more demand then push for rays i understand.
but really if some one wants something gernarlly they will pay for it (genuine ppl anyway) - i was an apprentice when i bought my motoros and parted 2 pay checks for mine, and id part another 2 pay cheques these days for another pair.

Me personally, id pay nearly double for what 20cm silver arros were 5 years ago to now easy - and i know several other ppl who would. i believe if someone genuinely wants something, and not a dreamer, they will pay up.

and i do agree with your prices Buccal as will most others here, however with availability, many will pay more if they are serious enough to want a pair.

hey johnno, theres a 'TO ORDER CLICK HERE' button give that a shot hahahaha......
those rays are magnificent. check out the albino leopoldis

Edited by Jules, 13 September 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[ruffaz]

Them prices are over priced the prices also include a handler flying with the rays to make sure they arrive to the customer it also includes constant surport

some of them rays ive seen in great cond go for 5000 a breeding pair in usa

nice looking rays though

[Peckoltia]

Which prices are over priced Ruffaz? I'm not following, sorry mate.

[Craig]

Them prices are over priced the prices also include a handler flying with the rays to make sure they arrive to the customer it also includes constant surport

some of them rays ive seen in great cond go for 5000 a breeding pair in usa

nice looking rays though

Are you comparing fish prices in America with those in Australia? There's no comparison, its a completely different market.

[Buccal]

Definetely Leo breeders in oz. The current value is 22k for a pup pair. The breeders are profit driven and very calculating. Basically only males are sold so they cannot be reproduced. It only takes one nonga to breed and drop the price to much and spoil it for the buyers which recently bought before him. We were just around the corner from seeing the value of Leo steer towards being affordable just a bit. But with a lot of other species of ray held back or not around, people are chasing and not finding, so I believe the Leo value will hold for a while longer. A educated guess I think that Leo pup pair value in five years time will be 12k pair. Any one buying a pair now and waiting the general 3 years to grow, mature and breed will take longer to make the money back. Hybridization of theses beasts are extremely exciting with a myriad, even infinite array of patterned outcomes. It's the best feeling coming home from work one day to see your breeding set up plastered with little new born pups stuck on the bottom and sides everywhere and first observing all the pattern varieties.

[bigjohnnofish]

hey johnno, theres a 'TO ORDER CLICK HERE' button give that a shot hahahaha......
those rays are magnificent. check out the albino leopoldis

haha not allowed to be imported into australia
i already know that!!!!

[Buccal]

you may be right but and i was not aiming what i said at any one in generall but i can name a few traders that sold there breeding stock of a perticular species arfter they flooded the market right here in perth one of them admitted making 10,000 to me said that i cant get anough for them now so ill breed something else lol i was just generlising here

we could go on all day but look at the price of some of the l numbers.

lets look at british bull dogs do you think 2500 for a pet only pup is keeping the lines clean and pure or breeders just protecting there investment ?

I have no quams with people making money from there hobby who would not wont to benifitt from there hobby in some way,what gets me is no transperancy from some indivudials who claim there are all for the hobby and the rerspect of fish dont give anything back to the fish community under cut the lfs and try and screw you down on price by saying its a buyers market not a sellers market its theses types of breeders or traders that ruin it for the real pasionate ones who arnt in it for the monerity gain.





just to put it in perspective i brought my original pair for 1500 but sold them for 800 it wasnt about the money for me but this might seem weired but it was about some one appreciating what they were

All of this stuff in the past doesn't matter, the way things are now is how it should be dealt with. I don't think that there would be any more than 2% of fish keepers breeding just for profit. Money to be made by 90% of breeders is so minimal. It's only the grand elaborate economical designed breed set ups that generate half a wage at 50-60k year. For myself, rays are only 5% of what I breed and maintain. And profit is maximized and audited constantly with extra ideas to improve returns, money and offspring wise. 48000 liter fully automated. Most people think I'm lying, but I sleep 3 hours a night except for one night a week at 8hrs. I'm so obsessed its unlikely anyone else can match and yet I'm so profit driven. Those people you speak of not caring about quality and welfare of the fish are likely to be a careless person by nature. The way I see it, ten years from now most that have rays now will not then. I still will have rays and more and for the next ten to twenty years, as long as my health will let me. Extreme passion combined with extreme profit chase. Note, I don't obtain profit through high pricing, it truly doesn't work for continued business, it's all about numbers or quantiy. It's up to the shops to regulate value. That's another thing that kills value, shop dodgers. If I'm after something and can get it half price privately but see it in shop for double but a decent specimen, I buy from the shop. Shops are so important, people just don't give this a thought after the discovery of pcs.
Calling things black or white is to abstract for this hobby.

Edited by Buccal, 14 September 2012 - 05:19 AM.

[Jules]

If your profit driven, why arent you selling your pups now then?
Guranteed theyd all be sold in a couple of day on here.......

Im a little confused now, unless I have read it wrong (which I apologise if so)

Would you mind posting photos of your set up? Would love to see them! Fascinated with all ray keepers systems.

[Buccal]

If your profit driven, why arent you selling your pups now then?
Guranteed theyd all be sold in a couple of day on here.......

Im a little confused now, unless I have read it wrong (which I apologise if so)

Would you mind posting photos of your set up? Would love to see them! Fascinated with all ray keepers systems.

This is what I'm saying, just because I'm incredibly profit driven, it doesn't mean I dont have loving passion for them. I don't need the money anyway, I've got plenty, I just WANT more money, LOL. This batch is sentimental to me, plus they are all different patterns to each other which is great for future breeding for combinations. The father is 50/50 Leo moto,. And the mother is pure mantilla. One pup almost has a solid orange background with a black honeycomb pattern over the top.
Some have triple spot colors, some have white dots and others have a green background like the mantilla and one looks like a marble moto. I swaped the marble looking one with a breeder over east for his, so it was shipped. I don't have the urge to show of my rays but can't post pics anyway, I'm computer illiterate and only have a iPad. For now I'm keeping every pup that turns out different from the rest for max hybridization outcomes. I have roughly a spare 8000 liters just for pups. All studs in 5000L and all females in another 5000L. I have many of each parent cross which i mention further below.(not just one of each)
Once all my females fire I will be selling here in Perth varieties of hybrids, prices will vary depending on patterning. My plan is to have
60-80 pups for sale at one time. They will only be sold by pics then to house delivery.
Mixtures will consist of
Triple spot Motoro individual parents
50/50 Leopoldi x triple spot Motoro individual parents
25/75 Leopoldi x triple spot Motoro individual parents
Mantilla individual parents
25/75 Mantilla x common Motoro individual parents
And my pups to be later parents Leo x Moto x Mantilla
It's the excitement times ten when doing crosses, you just don't know what crazy pattern is coming next.
I must stipulate that they are in the same family and technically not crosses, but morph mixtures as with koi.
But body shapes, sizes and maturity ages do vary within the different types.
If your all still in this down the track, you will see them and be welcomed to purchase them.

Edited by Buccal, 14 September 2012 - 04:46 PM.

[Peckoltia]

On the triple spot motoro. I tired doing a bit of searching, is it simply a motoro that shows 3 different colours in each spot? Not a 'label' that appears to be used in the states much anymore, like 'chain link'. Unless it is a genuine marble isn't it essentially just a nice motoro?

You have a great collection there for creating hybrids. Which is great for patterns, but I would hate to see the day where it is difficult to find genuine pure blood species.

I think after you cross Mantilla X Leopoldi X Hystrix X Motoro X Pearl etc it is essentially just a freshwater ray nothing else. Surely they could not be marketed as 25/25/50 motoro/leo/mantilla?

Edited by Peckoltia, 14 September 2012 - 05:06 PM.

[Buccal]

Yes triple spot is a yellow center surrounded by orange then the black ring. In the correct settings or tank color decor, white will show in the centre of the yellow. And yes hybrids are sold by the name of hybrid only, if asked, the species are revealed. Vietnam, Indonesia and America are punching out some stunning hybrids, BLUE AND WHITE, Im guessing the blue was pulled from the blue edge Motoro
Blue edge Motoro has the outside one to two inches of blue background behind the little dots around the outside.
If no one has googled tiger ray, do that, screw the black rays, go the yellow !

[Peckoltia]

Tiger rays are sensational.

I like P. constellata aka horny river stingray. Would say its a dream ray for me. Covered in denticles looks crazy.

Edited by Peckoltia, 14 September 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[bigjohnnofish]

but you wont be able to advertise them on here cause they are hybrids!!!! you wont be able to post pictures as your promoting hybrids!!!! maybe the rules will change by then lol

[SamJohns]

No ones taken my posts down? Maybe because it's a bit cooler than your mainstream FH that every man and his dog has got? Or have a forum for they can go to?

[Buccal]

I'm not going to get into a deep discussion about hybrid rays. But like I said, even though on sites around the world and generally talking we do call them hybrids. But really they are morph mixtures and not hybrids. The rays I morph mix LOL, are all in Potamotrygon family.
If a English man had children with a Indian, would you call the child a hybrid, I should Definetely think not.
Anyway, I have no intentions of ever plastering any fish or ray pics ever. The ray market as I mentioned before is a narrow one and doesn't take long for people know and seek.

[Peckoltia]

Of course I would not call the child of two people of different races a hybrid, as the child is not a hybrid, both his parents are the same species.

Mixing species is what creates hybrids.

[werdna]

We are a cichlid club. We have drawn the line at cichlids.
It is hard enough trying to police them, we cant go after catfish, rays etc.
However I dont know if we can allow you to sell them on here.

Maybe in the future if it is hard to get hold of pure Motoro or Leo's etc because of the hybridisation we might change our stance.
Hopefully the few keeping them are wise enough not to destroy what we have here and rays dont become another Trimac.

My wife was looking at these pics and was interested, who knows, in a couple of months I might have a new display tank in the house...
Now where can I fit an 8x3x2???

[scottyhooton]

In the pool room to replace the table you don't use