44 replies to this topic

[Vebas]

Hi guys

 

Just got this as the release from Fisheries.

TL/DR: Can sell/trade fish to shops that aren't noxious as long as the shop keeps a record of the name/address etc of the person trading the fish in

 

Cheers

Pacco

 

Ornamental fish advice – fish owners and aquariums 27/08/14
Department of Fisheries - Advice to Fish Retailers – Public surrendering of finfish to retail shops
The Department’s message is “Don’t dump that fish” and to not release aquariums fish in Western Australia’s drains, oceans, rivers, lakes or even toilets. It is more humane for the fish and significantly more beneficial for Western Australia’s native fish and aquatic habitats if unwanted fish are re-sold or humanely dispatched, rather than released into the natural environment.
Fish retailers dealing in ornamental fish are encouraged to assist the Department in the “Don’t Dump That Fish” Programme by accepting unwanted fish from the public.
We greatly appreciate the assistance and support as this is a very important issue.
What should you do when receiving unwanted fish from the public:

 

1. If the species of finfish is included on the Federal ‘Live Import List’
Aquarium shops and businesses that sell fish are able to accept and resell surrendered fish as long as the business can meet the requirements set out in Regulation 64 (5) Fish Resources Management Regulations 1995 where shops and other businesses must keep records of fish given to them*.
NOTE: Aquarium shops are under no obligation to accept and receive fish and should advise public to give them another fish owner, a school, or another organisation with an aquarium if the shop does not wish to receive them.

 

2. If the species of finfish is noxious fish species (banned)
If a fish on the Western Australian Noxious Fish List is received by an aquarium shop or other commercial business you must immediately dispatch that fish†. It is recommended that the fish be dispatched humanely using the methods as recommended on the RSPCA website www.kb.rspca.org.au and search using the term ‘humanely euthanase fish’.
You should contact the Department via FISHWATCH 1800 815 507 and provide the description of the fish and numbers received.
Please also note that you must keep records of the fish received: Pursuant to Regulation 64, shops and other businesses must keep records of fish given to them*.

 

3. If the species of finfish is NOT on the Federal Live Import List and not on the WA noxious fish list (and are not WA native or endemic)
Aquariums and businesses already selling the fish species surrendered are able to accept and resell the fish as long as they are already widespread in the aquarium trade in Western Australia and you can meet the requirements set out in Regulation 64*.

 

4. If the species of finfish is unknown
If the species cannot be identified, please contact the Department via Department FISHWATCH 1800 815 507 and hold the fish. If you are at all suspicious that the species is likely to be on the WA Noxious Fish List please immediately dispose of them humanely in methods as recommended on the RSPCA website www.kb.rspca.org.au using the search term ‘humanely euthanase fish’ and contact the. The Department will then come and collect the fish.
Ornamental fish advice – fish owners and aquariums 27/08/14
Aquariums or other commercial business need to make a record of the fish surrendered immediately*†.

 

5. When finfish are anonymously delivered to aquarium shops or other premises and the details of the person who delivered the fish are unknown
Euthanase the fish humanely: You may dispose of them humanely in methods as recommended on the RSPCA website www.kb.rspca.org.au using the search term ‘humanely euthanase fish’ and contact the Department via FISHWATCH 1800 815 507.

 

Relevant Legislation
*Regulation 64 Fish Resources Management Regulations 1995: a person who is engaged in for a commercial purpose must make a record of fish received whether purchased or not.
†Section 104 Fish Resources Management Act 1994: A person must not keep, breed, consign, release or possess any live noxious fish. For breach of this legislation a penalty of $10,000 applies for individuals and$20,000 for bodies corporate.
For any enquiries, please email translocation@fish.wa.gov.au.

[Frontosaman]

So if I read that correct we will now see alot more selection of fish?


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[Androo]

Sarcasm fronty???
I dare say we will see less of the fish that may pop their heads up from time to time, if a fish that's not common in wa eg. Nandopsis tetracanthus is not common and even though on no list does that mean we should not keep them? The stores don't currently sell them? Just raises more questions for me. I may have missed so etching used someone feels the need to jump in and abuse me

[Frontosaman]

All the LFS need to say is that they already sell certain species but have no stock


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Fisheries are a joke!!


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[Fox]

Well, if you don't know what happens with fish inTassie, this is the start of it.
The day will come when the backyard breeder will no longer be allowed to sell privately or to shops.
This is the case in Tassie.
Goodbye to some of the cool species that are around.
Why?
Well not all shops want to stock a certain species due to it being:
Too expensive
Too aggressive
Not a big seller
Etc etc

So the guy / gal that breeds the certain L number (or whatever) will no longer do so because it's not worth it when it comes to moving it on due to no money changing hands so the person can buy more species OR pay their bills.

It's really sad to see
I've lived it when I lived in Tassie. One of the reasons I was so Excited to move to WA, I could finally breed and sell.
Real shame...
And at the end of the day it comes down to those few that don't obey the rules and then fisheries get shitty, and I don't blame them TBH.

Same as road rules, adhere to them and the cops won't annoy you.
I laugh at those who carry on about the speeding ticket they just received cause they were a DH and was speeding.
Don't speed & show off, don't get a ticket.
Don't get illegal fish & brag about them, don't get fisheries bringing in new laws.

[Morley Aquariums]

From my understanding - Basically means we will need to record names & addresses of trade in fish- if not supplied then fish must be refused or euthenased. Does not mean more species available.
 

[malawiman85]

It will, i suspect, deter people from surrendering grey area fish... Especially if they own other grey area fish.

 

I take it this is just an attempt to tighten the noose on illegal imports of grey listed fish???

[Bombshocked]

. If the species of finfish is NOT on the Federal Live Import List and not on the WA noxious fish list (and are not WA native or endemic)
Aquariums and businesses already selling the fish species surrendered are able to accept and resell the fish as long as they are already widespread in the aquarium trade in Western Australia and you can meet the requirements set out in Regulation 64*.

 

[Frontosaman]

On further reading of that I am see, it is a very cleverly worded clause


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[Rovik]

What constitutes as "already widespread" ?

[bigjohnnofish]

that is encouraging and discouraging at the same time.... fisheries are pushing "dont dump that fish" on one hand and on the other if you dont give me your name , address and phone number then you may as well go dump that fish because we're leaving you no other option...  everybody has a right to their privacy...

 

the law makers of this state seriously need to be informed of this and made to see no good can come from enforcing it...

 

im a concerned hobbyist and donot wish to see feral populations of non-native fish everywhere and the above rule(s) donot promote this....

 

if the appropriate department did their job in the first place and kept out illegal fish there wouldnt be any more problems.... 

[bigjohnnofish]

What constitutes as "already widespread" ?

 

way i see it anything on bayfish or AIs list and anything that has been in the hobby for at least 10 years would fall into that catergory.... 

 

bout time everything was put into black and white - i dont have an issue with a fish being declared noxious - but if a fish doesnt present itself as being a bio-risk then what harm does it do to leave it as it is.... 

 

one other point wouldnt it be better to breed majority of the fish in the aquarium trade locally then to keep importing them ?  disease risk would have to be less and it would create more jobs for the local economy.... oh but thats prob not a liberal policy to create more jobs

[sajica]

Interesting. So native fish that aren't currently widespread due to non commercial viability can't be kept. So no Cairnsicthys or Rhadinocentrus, Threadfin Rainbows, Pseudomugil, Mogurnda, or NG Rainbows.

 

Who wants to join my picket line? I will be bringing the megaphone, entertainment and witty slogans.

 

 

So people overseas can LEGALLY own illegally smuggled species and we can't LEGALLY own them here. What a farce.

[Den]

EDIT: OK I just went to the website,

 

http://www.austlii.e...995365/s64.html

 

They didnt put the whole regulation in your letter, I read the whole regulation, it does say you need the name and address of the person, though Im reading through it all atm to see all the details.

Edited by Den, 05 September 2014 - 08:21 PM.

[Vebas]

 

 

Can I point out that regulation 64 states "record of the fish" only, it says nothing about keeping a record of the seller or breeders details.

 

As far as I can read it fisheries are just offering advice and they cannot force you to demand personal details and/or then surrender personal details of your customers to them or anyone else.

 

Most people consider their address as private information, and any shop that decides to comply with these Gestapo directives I expect will loose out, and privately bred stock will trade through other chanels around them.

 

http://www.austlii.e...995365/s64.html

 

From section 64:

 

(5)         A person (engaged for a commercial purpose) who purchases or receives any fish must ensure that the record to be kept under this regulation —

            (a)         exists or is made at the time that the fish is purchased or received; and

            ( b )        specifies —

                  (i)         the quantity and species of the fish purchased or received; and

                  (ii)         the date of that purchase or receipt; and

                  (iii)         the name and address of the person from whom the fish were purchased or received;

                and

            (c )         is kept at the place where the fish are purchased or received.

 

Doesn't affect direct hobbyist sales as far as I am aware, unless I suppose they deem it to be commercial in scale... while I agree in principle that we shouldn't have to take this information if we don't and can't produce records of purchase then the fish can be seized and destroyed.

 

Cheers

Pacco

[Den]

Hi Pacco

 

It seems you copied my post and replied while I was doing my edit.

 

Seems the Regulation was written for commerical fishing from a boat? I found nothing stated that the regulation that refers specifically to the ornamental fish trade, though statement ( b ) I dont understand? and there seems to be some broad statements that could maybe make it apply to ornamental fish trade, any lawyers on here that can have a look?

 

Cheers

Den

 

 

(1A)         In this regulation —

        person engaged for a commercial purpose in an activity means —

            (a)         in the case of an activity referred to in subregulation (2)(a), ( b ) or (c )  that is carried out using a boat which has a master, the master of the boat; or

            ( b )         in any other case, the holder of the authorisation under which the activity is carried out;

 

 

Edited by Den, 05 September 2014 - 08:45 PM.

[pacco]

(d)         dealing in or purchasing for resale, or exporting or importing, live fish or their products;

It looks like only a, b and c are specified as being with the boat

 

Cheers

Pacco

[sandgroper]

It's just a way to get breeders addresses so they can raid your place and kill everything in site. I guess breeders won't be dealing with shops any more, it's to risky for the breeder. This will result in a decline in the trade for fish shop owners as you generally buy something when your in there. Oh well back to the stone age i guess with the hobby.

[bigjohnnofish]

i was just reading the link given above on the said topic - copied and pasted the top dozen lines or so - below

 

FISH RESOURCES MANAGEMENT REGULATIONS 1995 - REG 64 64 .         Commercial fishers etc., duties of as to records and returns

        (1A)         In this regulation — 

        person engaged for a commercial purpose in an activity means — 

            (a)         in the case of an activity referred to in subregulation (2)(a), ( or © that is carried out using a boat which has a master, the master of the boat; or 

            (         in any other case, the holder of the authorisation under which the activity is carried out; 

        return includes a return regarding an activity that a person is authorised to engage in under an authorisation showing that the activity was not engaged in during a month. 

        (1)         A person engaged for a commercial purpose in any activity referred to in subregulation (2) must keep records relevant to that activity relating to the following matters and must retain those records for a period of not less than 7 years — 

 

to me straight away - a commercial fisher is someone who fishes.... this shouldnt apply to aquarium trade/hobby unless your a licenced collector of said fish from a waterway and are supplying them to an aquarium shop ?  true ?  anybodies thoughts ?

 

the biggest problem with any legislation is it isnt written in K.I.S.S. format... 

[Mr_docfish]

The majority of the regulations was produced with commercial fishing in mind, not ornamental trade - but that does not exclude ornamental fish keeping - we are just sucked into it.
This regulation has been there since 1995 - in all my years, I have never had any official ever request the details of any trading with local hobbyists - until they needed an excuse to confiscate our native shrimp.... Now just think of how much paperwork and time expended in all those years if each LFS had actually done as requested for each and every trade-in done over the last 20years .....

I still have paperwork from 2000 when the tax man required us to keep a signed form from each breeder that states that they are not charging GST because they are only trading for hobby purposes and not for commercial gain.... I have never been asked to produce those documents - I stopped filling them in after 2 years....

This brings me to the issue of "Commercial Purpose"
The Tax Department denotes Commercial Purpose as trading over $25,000 in a financial year in that area.
This means that 99.5% of hobbyist breeders in Perth do no need an Aquaculture License and nor do they need to keep records of purchases or sales.... Which brings me to one more part of the regulation that shows how we are being conned...
In the regulation 64 there is one part (1(b)) that states we as traders with commercial purpose have to keep the details of people we sell to (sales of fish or fish products) as well as purchase from.... Well.... There is another regulation that every LFS and pet shop in WA is breaking.... Or are we???

Rant Over

The regulations need to be overhauled - and quickly too!!

Edited by Mr_docfish, 06 September 2014 - 09:06 AM.