15 replies to this topic

[anno1685]

I've just discovered some mild whitespot on my mbunas.

I've acted according to what I've seen on the forums: I've done a 50% water change, cranked the temperature up to 30 degrees celsius, added salt at 1 tablespoon per 5 gallon, turned off all the lights, increased the aeration and will be doing water changes every 2nd day. Will be doing this for a whole week hoping it will clear. Just one small detail (bear with me, I'm a completely beginner), what about the feeding regimen?

[/i]

[Fox]

Feeding is fine to go on as normal.
Are you going to treat with anything?

I usually recommend the following:

Day one:
20% Water change using gravel siphon, and treat with good quality white spot treatment.
Leave lights off and temp up to 28 degress.

Day three:
20% water change using gravel siphon, treat again with W/S product.
Keep the lights off.

Day six:
Do the same as above, By now the parasite should've cleared.

By doing the gravel siphon, it picks up any eggs that havent hatched as the W/S treatment DOESNT kill the eggs only the parasite.

Just remember to put your temp back down when it has gone. But just keep an eye on your fish as W/S parasite has been known to reappear after approx 2 weeks.

Hope that helps

Cheers
Az

[anno1685]

Feeding is fine to go on as normal.
Are you going to treat with anything?

I usually recommend the following:

Day one:
20% Water change using gravel siphon, and treat with good quality white spot treatment.
Leave lights off and temp up to 28 degress.

Day three:
20% water change using gravel siphon, treat again with W/S product.
Keep the lights off.

Day six:
Do the same as above, By now the parasite should've cleared.

By doing the gravel siphon, it picks up any eggs that havent hatched as the W/S treatment DOESNT kill the eggs only the parasite.

Just remember to put your temp back down when it has gone. But just keep an eye on your fish as W/S parasite has been known to reappear after approx 2 weeks.

Hope that helps

Cheers
Az

I am not sure about adding any chemicals. I read someone on a website that suggested 2 methods, one with chemicals and another without, so I thought I might just try the one without any chemicals first. I have some malachite green. Will that help? Or do I need something more specific?

[Fox]

Yes malachite green will help, Just check the doseage rate, And be sure to half dose if you have any scaleless fish ie loaches.

[Mr_docfish]

Sorry to be a technical Nazi here Az, but here is a snippet from an article:
http://aquanic.org/p.../srac/476fs.pdf

Life cycle of ICH Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is a protozoan parasite that usually is transmitted into a pond by a carrier fish, other animals, or man. It can be pumped into a pond from a river or stream used as a water
source for the pond. When the Ich adult leaves the infected fish, it is called a tomont . The tomont attaches to the pond bottom or other surface and forms a thin-walled cyst. Within the cyst, the tomont divides many times, forming as many as 2,000 small tomites. When the tomites are released from the cyst into the water, they elongate and become theronts. These theronts (also called swarmers) swim to a fish host and penetrate the fish's epithelium using a penetrating gland and the strong swimming action of their cilia. If they do not find a fish host within a day or two they usually die. This makes Ich an obligate parasite; it must have a fish host to survive. Once they penetrate the fish they are referred to as trophonts. Trophonts feed on the host fish and mature while being protected from chemical treatment under the fish's mucus or epithelium.
Only the theront and tomont stages are sensitive to treatments in the water. The amount of time needed for Ich to complete its life cycle is
temperature dependent. Ich commonly infects fish between 68o and 77o F (20o to 25o C), but infections do occur at colder temperatures (as low as 33o F, 1o C). Typically, Ich cannot reproduce properly at water temperatures above 85o F (30o C), so the parasite usually does not cause problems in warm summer months

Basically it is only possible to kill the larval stages of the white spot while it is out side the body of the fish, this includes the "egg" stage or "Tomont".
Adding salt (between 5g per 10litres and 5g per 5litres) and keeping the temp up around the 30C mark will stop the parasite from reproducing, so as you said, in six days, there should be a marked improvement.
Adding products like malachite green will assist in killing off the white spot too, but should be viewed as preventing secondary infections by some bacteria and fungi. (Products like tetracyclines can also be used in more serious cases where noticeable bacterial infections have occurred.)
Salt at 5g per 5litres will not affect a healthy biological filter, whereas malachite green can, so use it carefully and follow directions.

Oliver

[anno1685]

Sorry to be a technical Nazi here Az, but here is a snippet from an article:
http://aquanic.org/p.../srac/476fs.pdf

Life cycle of ICH Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is a protozoan parasite that usually is transmitted into a pond by a carrier fish, other animals, or man. It can be pumped into a pond from a river or stream used as a water
source for the pond. When the Ich adult leaves the infected fish, it is called a tomont . The tomont attaches to the pond bottom or other surface and forms a thin-walled cyst. Within the cyst, the tomont divides many times, forming as many as 2,000 small tomites. When the tomites are released from the cyst into the water, they elongate and become theronts. These theronts (also called swarmers) swim to a fish host and penetrate the fish's epithelium using a penetrating gland and the strong swimming action of their cilia. If they do not find a fish host within a day or two they usually die. This makes Ich an obligate parasite; it must have a fish host to survive. Once they penetrate the fish they are referred to as trophonts. Trophonts feed on the host fish and mature while being protected from chemical treatment under the fish's mucus or epithelium.
Only the theront and tomont stages are sensitive to treatments in the water. The amount of time needed for Ich to complete its life cycle is
temperature dependent. Ich commonly infects fish between 68o and 77o F (20o to 25o C), but infections do occur at colder temperatures (as low as 33o F, 1o C). Typically, Ich cannot reproduce properly at water temperatures above 85o F (30o C), so the parasite usually does not cause problems in warm summer months

Basically it is only possible to kill the larval stages of the white spot while it is out side the body of the fish, this includes the "egg" stage or "Tomont".
Adding salt (between 5g per 10litres and 5g per 5litres) and keeping the temp up around the 30C mark will stop the parasite from reproducing, so as you said, in six days, there should be a marked improvement.
Adding products like malachite green will assist in killing off the white spot too, but should be viewed as preventing secondary infections by some bacteria and fungi. (Products like tetracyclines can also be used in more serious cases where noticeable bacterial infections have occurred.)
Salt at 5g per 5litres will not affect a healthy biological filter, whereas malachite green can, so use it carefully and follow directions.

Oliver

Perhaps a "gentle" chemical solution in addition to the the salt and temperature treatment? Is there such a thing?

[sydad]

Perhaps a "gentle" chemical solution in addition to the the salt and temperature treatment? Is there such a thing?

Interestingly, the "gentlest" chemical from the fish's viewpoint is methylene blue, which can safely be used at concentrations that give the water the appearance of Quink (I wonder how many users of this forum would be familiar with this product): in other words a blue so dark that the fish cannot be seen if more than 20 mms or so from the glass.
The problem is that methylene blue will kill plants, and also a majority of the beneficial bacteria that assist in controlling ammonia/ nitrite.
However, if you have an isolation tank that will hold all fishes needing treatment, then methylene blue is a safe and efficient chemical.

Malachite green on the other hand is relatively toxic and requires judicious use (careful measuring), but is very efficient at eliminating white spot: particularly when used in conjunction with formalin. There are several proprietary formulations of this mixture available.
The "good" thing about this mixture, or malachite green used alone, is that they have minimal deleterious effect on both plants and nitrifying bacterial systems. The most important thing if using them is to do a 50% water change on completion of treatment as some residues persist.
It must be noted that both methylene blue and malachite green will stain silicone adhesive (the former more so than the latter)

There are numerous treatments other than the above (such as quinine), but most have problematic side effects, and/or toxic residues.
White spot is efficiently removed using UV treatment of water, but requires very careful removal of particulate matter from the water before it enters the UV plenum (this process alone should eliminate most of the free swimming, infectious forms of the organism).

Syd.

[syroc]

Hey Syd, I used to use Quink at school!
fran.

[anno1685]

It is the third day. Temperature has been around 30 degrees celsius and I've topped up the salt for 1 tablespoon to 5 gallons. I've done a 20% water change (with conditioner) and replaced the salt. While some fish have no whitespot at all, some have more. I have also noticed a bit of protruding scale from scratching. Is it a case of "it'll get worse before it gets better?"

Thanks.

[Mr_docfish]

True, it will always look worse before it gets better. The spots you are seeing now have buried themselves into the skin 3-4 days ago (where the treatments can't get to them), so now they are 'popping up'.
Some fish can get some form of immunity to white spot if they have had it before, this is why some get it and some don't, and any weaker fish will get it worse.

[anno1685]

True, it will always look worse before it gets better. The spots you are seeing now have buried themselves into the skin 3-4 days ago (where the treatments can't get to them), so now they are 'popping up'.
Some fish can get some form of immunity to white spot if they have had it before, this is why some get it and some don't, and any weaker fish will get it worse.

I am into my sixth day now. Some have completely no white spot, while others still have quite a bit. The one that is quite heavily infected has stopped eating, so I suspect I might lose it. There is an enormous amount of scratching going on, with many fish having lost some scales. Should I persevere until the 10th day?

[Mr_docfish]

continue until there are no more symptoms. Check the water parameters (ammonia, nitrite etc, if these are even a little out of order, it won't help)
Any very weak fish may not be able to shrug off the spots, but continue and eventually you will get a hold of the situation.
You can increase the salt levels further if you wish, 1gram per litre would be the highest you would need, if this wont work, then adding malachite green mixes at a half dose will. But get your water tested before adding the malachite green.

[anno1685]

continue until there are no more symptoms. Check the water parameters (ammonia, nitrite etc, if these are even a little out of order, it won't help)
Any very weak fish may not be able to shrug off the spots, but continue and eventually you will get a hold of the situation.
You can increase the salt levels further if you wish, 1gram per litre would be the highest you would need, if this wont work, then adding malachite green mixes at a half dose will. But get your water tested before adding the malachite green.

The only fish with spots has passed on now. So I think I'll keep up with the treatment for a 3 more days. However, I think one of my fish has developed bloat! What should I do?

[Mr_docfish]

Bloat is a secondary infection, best to remove it from the tank and keep it in quarantine to see what happens. (adding salt @ 1g per litre to the Quarantine tank will help)
Keep the treatment up for 7 days, to be sure (4-5 day cycle).

[anno1685]

Bloat is a secondary infection, best to remove it from the tank and keep it in quarantine to see what happens. (adding salt @ 1g per litre to the Quarantine tank will help)
Keep the treatment up for 7 days, to be sure (4-5 day cycle).

Is there any chemical whitespot treatment that doesn't stain the tank?

[Mr_docfish]

Tri sulpha (and acriflavine, but hard to get on its own)