60 replies to this topic

[Peckoltia]

"LFS are lucky to even turn a profit on a fish that they only sell for $100 - $300, who the F%#$ are we to sit here and complain about the price on a fish that is actually quite cheap"

Is this really needed? i can tell you... if it were i that wrote these words... id have gotten "another" warning...

That's because it seems to different rules for different people.

I think this thread has had the guts flogged out of it already... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Noddy65]

I would have thought they they are expensive because people are willing to pay high prices for them....if people werent so keen to pay high prices then they wouldnt be that expensive...but I think thats half the attraction for these fish..

Mike

[DR14GoNF14SH]

i think you hit the nail on the head there mike... if they sell at that price then they sell... lol :wink:

[piscevore]

"
there is not much that is cheaper but many that are around that same price... that are much more exotic...

1.Clown knives
2.Senegal bichirs
3.Silver arowana
4.Giant Gourami
5.Peacock Bass

Infact PBass, clown knives and giant gourami are perfect examples... all i have seen available under $150, with PBass available at around $50!!! 8O :twisted:


Right... i have had many a fish sent over from the east...ime it is much much cheaper at the end of the day to send bulk fish, rather than one fish...
And as far as 15cm togas are concerned, i dont think that is the size they are arriving at... when in season i have seen most togas to be around 5-6cm... so i dont believe for a second that postage is the reason togas are expensive... :roll:


"LFS are lucky to even turn a profit on a fish that they only sell for $100 - $300, who the F%#$ are we to sit here and complain about the price on a fish that is actually quite cheap"

Is this really needed? i can tell you... if it were i that wrote these words... id have gotten "another" warning... :roll:




e. :wink:

You will have to let us know of a LFS that sells birchirs, silver arros and giant gourami's for under 200. I'm pretty sure the standard price for a 10cm CK at a LFS is around the 220 mark, the rest would be more espensive than that. I'd love to see the day that a silver arro is under the 200 mark, next minute LFS will be a charity organisation! As for Peacock bass, they breed like rabbits. They are like barra. Never ever call a peacock bass exotic, ever. Exotic = hard to get/rare/illegal. peacock bass are none of these things.

I am not saying that is the one and only reason, just that it is a contributing factor, it all adds up in the end. Freight cost is worked out by the kilo, not by what fish you are sending. Yes when togas are sent over they are not usually at the 15 cm mark (please forgive me for trying to throw an example in on how size of a fish can exponentially increase the freight cost), but even a little toga will still require a RELATIVELY large quantity of water. Are you really saying that freight is not a contributing factor??? I'm pretty sure that this cost would be taken into account when pricing the fish.

Yes, I felt it was needed, after all I did get attention drawn to my statement did I not? It worked quite well don't you think :wink:

Anyway, maybe I didn't get a warning because the PCS are tired of reading posts bagging out LFS that are their sponsors, they probably been waiting for someone to say something. Most LFS do their very best to give us fair prices, yet we still are sitting here saying why are they charging this price?

[Den]

I think the debate here is a waste of time and energy, the fact is there are many factors that drive the market price of any item, get over it. Low supply and high demand usually means the price goes up. There is one thing that I think is a rip off in the hobby and thats fish food, but there seems to be cheaper foods now coming out, but the major brands are still way over priced if you compare them to similar products for other animals.

Piscevore, your definition of 'exotic' is quite interesting, perhaps you should call Oxford and ask them to replace the definition in the dictionary with your new definition? Pbass are an exotic and there aren't alot of people around with the skills,dedication and the equipment to breed them and more importantly raise the young, which if you've ever bred egg layers like these that have tiny fry you'll know how demanding it is to raise them and how easy it is to lose the fry. Its certainly much harder than raising rift lake mouth brooders!

Cheers
Den

[DR14GoNF14SH]

"As for Peacock bass, they breed like rabbits. They are like barra. Never ever call a peacock bass exotic, ever. Exotic = hard to get/rare/illegal. peacock bass are none of these things." 8O 8O

pbass are like barra??? ohh... lordy lordy lordy... i cant remember the last time i saw pbass for sale at the lfs... :?: infact how many people here actually keep pbass? i know of less than 10 people...

anyways... i now realise it is a waste of time discussing this topic...lol, but it was interesting none the less...

e. :wink:

[DR14GoNF14SH]

Just thought id throw in the actual definition for the word "exotic" hehe...:


1. of foreign origin or character; not native; introduced from abroad, but not fully naturalized or acclimatized: exotic foods; exotic plants.
2. strikingly unusual or strange in effect or appearance. :wink:

[Peckoltia]

"
there is not much that is cheaper but many that are around that same price... that are much more exotic...

1.Clown knives
2.Senegal bichirs
3.Silver arowana
4.Giant Gourami
5.Peacock Bass

Infact PBass, clown knives and giant gourami are perfect examples... all i have seen available under $150, with PBass available at around $50!!! 8O :twisted:


Right... i have had many a fish sent over from the east...ime it is much much cheaper at the end of the day to send bulk fish, rather than one fish...
And as far as 15cm togas are concerned, i dont think that is the size they are arriving at... when in season i have seen most togas to be around 5-6cm... so i dont believe for a second that postage is the reason togas are expensive... :roll:


"LFS are lucky to even turn a profit on a fish that they only sell for $100 - $300, who the F%#$ are we to sit here and complain about the price on a fish that is actually quite cheap"

Is this really needed? i can tell you... if it were i that wrote these words... id have gotten "another" warning... :roll:




e. :wink:

You will have to let us know of a LFS that sells birchirs, silver arros and giant gourami's for under 200. I'm pretty sure the standard price for a 10cm CK at a LFS is around the 220 mark, the rest would be more espensive than that. I'd love to see the day that a silver arro is under the 200 mark, next minute LFS will be a charity organisation! As for Peacock bass, they breed like rabbits. They are like barra. Never ever call a peacock bass exotic, ever. Exotic = hard to get/rare/illegal. peacock bass are none of these things.

I am not saying that is the one and only reason, just that it is a contributing factor, it all adds up in the end. Freight cost is worked out by the kilo, not by what fish you are sending. Yes when togas are sent over they are not usually at the 15 cm mark (please forgive me for trying to throw an example in on how size of a fish can exponentially increase the freight cost), but even a little toga will still require a RELATIVELY large quantity of water. Are you really saying that freight is not a contributing factor??? I'm pretty sure that this cost would be taken into account when pricing the fish.

Yes, I felt it was needed, after all I did get attention drawn to my statement did I not? It worked quite well don't you think :wink:

Anyway, maybe I didn't get a warning because the PCS are tired of reading posts bagging out LFS that are their sponsors, they probably been waiting for someone to say something. Most LFS do their very best to give us fair prices, yet we still are sitting here saying why are they charging this price?

I love it how people bag out fish stores. Why don't you open up a store and show us how it's done as you seem to be an infinite wealth of knowledge!

Pbass breed like rabbits. How many times have your spawned pbass?

[piscevore]

generally speaking that is a good definition of exotic, but if applied to the fish trade then almost everything would be called an "exotic" so to avoid confusion (people wanting to buy exotics don't want things like sword tails and balloon mollies even though they are strikingly unusual in shape or appearance and are from abroad) "exotics" are considered those things that are difficult to aquire like TSN or gator gars, RTC etc. It's like when you talk about exotic sports cars... just because it wasn't an imported car does not mean that it would not be called "exotic" if you lived in Italy you would still call a Ferrari an exotic sports car.

Exotic is sometimes used to refer to extravagant cost, not just origin or appearance. Its good that you looked up the definition in the dictionary, but that is only the first step, you also have to apply the definition, which can sometimes be a little tricky.

For breeding Cichla monoculus

Parents usually spawn twice a year, laying between 1000 - 10000 eggs (thats why they are not rare). But an average of about 3000 is the norm. The parents tend to guard their nest and the young (mainly the male but the female is also known to leave the nest to protect the young when needed). Once the eggs hatch the male (sometimes the female) will take the fry into his mouth and then place them in a suitable position. The larvea have a mucus like adhesive on their head and this is used to attach them to the surface they are placed on. Off the top of my head it takes four days for them to become free swimming. Now heres the trick, in the wild they feed on zooplankton etc that floats around, under the supervision of the parents (they guard the fry for about 4 weeks, up to 9 weeks). Seperating the fry from the parents is probably the best option, but it has been found that the parents sometimes lose the "parental instinct" when this is done, sometimes fighting with each other. To prevent this leave a small quantity of fry with the parents for them to care for. The fry you have seperated should be fed on newly hatched brine shrimp. Water changes should be done very regularly (to promote healthy growth and increase the survival rate) but should be done with utmost care. Water should be vigourously aerated and and heated to the same temp as the fry are in. The male fry tend to grow faster than the females so as the fish grow seperation of different sized fish is important to prevent fighting. After 4 weeks the fry should have reached the 2 cm mark and you can start to train them to accept other foods. Success rates are a reported 10% of the original batch, so that means about 100 - 1000 young. It takes about 12 months for them to reach sexual maturaity, so in a year you will have the opportunity to breed (if 100 survive and there is a perfect 1 female to 1 male ratio) 5 100 more young (5000 for the new pairs and 100 from the original parents). If you are good at it after 12 months you could have a possible 51 000 young. Not that anybody has the facilities for this. Anyway, Den you can see that the actual breeding process is not hard, but having the time and facilities to make it happen is what makes it difficult. It's not that they are hard to breed (considering that a lot of species of fish need hormone injections to breed, the parents eat their own eggs, low survival rate etc of other fish) just that the owners of this fish don't have the time.

Oh and to get a pair get a young group of males and females and wait for them to pair of, then simply seperate the new pair into their own tanks for breeding.

@Peckoltia I'm only an infinite wealth of knowledge compared to some, hint hint. Now tell me something, did you actually need to quote everything I said. I am hoping that you are going to comment a bit further because it would be a terrible waste to quote something and then only spit out a few smart ass lines at the end of it.

[Peckoltia]

You didn't answer my question. How many times have you spawned Cichla? It's one thing to regurgitate second hand information, it's another to have hands on experience.

[piscevore]

Sorry mate I thought that was rethorical. I've never personally done it, I have just liased with people that have. But I just never found it very interesting. I only provided that information to demonstrate that it is not difficult, and that they do indeed produce a large quantity of young. I might not have hands on experience, but I have had the privelage of observation.

Now its your turn to add some of your own "first hand" knowledge on the subject. I assume you do have something to contribute?

[Peckoltia]

By the way here are my Cichla. Pics are a bit old. Fish have since been moved to a mates pond to free up my big tank. Will have to get some new pics some time. Spawned twice in my tank, with some success raising some fry. ALOT more too it then just add water as you seem to believe. Unfortunately the smaller male was killed.

[Peckoltia]

Sorry mate I thought that was rethorical. I've never personally done it, I have just liased with people that have. But I just never found it very interesting. I only provided that information to demonstrate that it is not difficult, and that they do indeed produce a large quantity of young. I might not have hands on experience, but I have had the privelage of observation.

Now its your turn to add some of your own "first hand" knowledge on the subject. I assume you do have something to contribute?

Yes. I have kept large cichla for quite some time with a couple spawns. But am no expert in any form of the word.

[Peckoltia]

male



female around breeding time, developed a very small hump at this time. Nothing on the male. Not sure what your personal gripe is towards cichla. Obviously very little experience with them. As they are a fantastic species.

That's all i'll add for now.

[DR14GoNF14SH]

"Parents usually spawn twice a year, laying between 1000 - 10000 eggs (thats why they are not rare). "

yeh ive never bred pbass either, however i can only go by what is going around "zero" and i have been trying to get some for quite a while now... Also having spoken to Terry when his pbass were breeding, yes its not difficult to breed them but to rear the fry is extremely hard as they usually kill each other off...

so id have to disagree and say that they def are rare... and like i said b4, how many times have you seen these for sale in lfs's or anywhere for that matter?? not much like barra at all it seems...

hehe... anyways...

just for the record, i am in no way bagging the lfs's... i just would love to know the answer to the question that was asked... as i had also wondered the same thing on a few occassions... its just a legitimate question...and as far as i can gather, it just seems to be the going rate, and people pay the price asked... as stated by den:
"Low supply and high demand usually means the price goes up"

e. :wink:

[Vebas]

I thought the question had already been answered a few pages ago.

1) A store will probably be paying roughly $30+gst for small leichardti and $40+GST for small jardini - this equates to a rough retail of $80-110, given that the store will also have to pay for state quarantine inspection fees, some form of packing/freight (although most large wholesalers subsidise this somewhat) and labour/fuel for picking the fish up from the airport. This doesn't take into account the tank space, power, water and wages to maintain the fish once purchased. If you think this is an unrealistic markup - open a LFS, with those kind of margins it must be easy money..... :twisted:

2) If another country can import Saratoga they will get them cheaper than the Aussie farms can produce them - simply because with land, labour and other costs the way they are in Asia no-one over here can really compete.

Just for interest sake (if you really want to see some nice markups on exotic fish), if these were importable my cost in AUD$ including freight to import would be:

Tinfoil Barb 5cm $0.61
Cherry Shrimp $0.31
Clown Knifefish 7cm $0.95
Walking Catfish ML $0.45
Blackfin Pacu 6.5cm $0.82
Electric catfish 6cm $2.33
Fire Eel 30cm $9.73
Albino Giant Gourami 6.5cm $1.01
Silver Arowana 9cm $8.92
Silver Arowana 14cm $12.61
L027 5cm $9.55
Redtail Catfish 7cm $4.61
Senegal Bichir 6cm $0.53
Tiger Shovelnose Catfish 6cm $1.22

Food for thought....

Cheers
Pacco

[DR14GoNF14SH]

well thx for the info pacco,( i must have missed the answer )... so it would be safe to say that all fish that cost around the $30-$40 mark that are coming from over east carry the similar $80-$110 price tag? so its not just exclusive to togas...?

Clown Knifefish 7cm $0.95
Fire Eel 30cm $9.73
Albino Giant Gourami 6.5cm $1.01
Silver Arowana 9cm $8.92
Silver Arowana 14cm $12.61
L027 5cm $9.55
Redtail Catfish 7cm $4.61
Senegal Bichir 6cm $0.53
Tiger Shovelnose Catfish 6cm $1.22

Now we're talkin!! :twisted:

and yes i would love to open a fish shop, maybe in about 20 yrs... haha... i know it isnt exactly easy money for you guys but im sure most established lfs's do ok... :wink:

[Vebas]

Most stores have to run at 150-200+% markup on the base cost of fish if they want to stay in business, especially as most regular customers expect to not have to pay full price anyway - even if the fish hasn't been marked up that much.

There is a hell of a lot more money around (and less stress) working on the mines compared to running a LFS.

Probably the most accurate article I have ever seen on the subject is : http://www.petsforum...fish_store.html

Don't get me wrong, most of the time I love what I do. Do I regret doing it ..... no. Would I make the same decision and do it again..... ummm, maybe/ maybe not.

I am actually doing a talk at the next PCS meeting on the joys of owning a LFS, so anyone who has question about it feel free to rock up - I would rather answer questions than have to think of stuff to say on my own

Cheers
Pacco

[temptazn]

nice fish there Peckoltia.
honestly ive never actually seen that fish anywhere before! hahaha...
quick someone give China a ring. Cheap togas in no time.
And to answer the question:
They
just
are...

[Mr_docfish]

When's the next meeting guys? I might come by if I have time to offer Pacco some support.

doc