87 replies to this topic

[Peckoltia]

Be interesting to know what is "cheap"? In the aquarium trade like in life, cheap is not always best.

[Peckoltia]

Nice one mate.

Always nice to get Rays straight from the breeders so you know the exact age and lineage of the parents.

[Peckoltia]

Any pics your willing to share? I understand if not.

I really love how diverse their colors can be even within the realms of a "standard" motoro.

Edited by Peckoltia, 15 September 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[Peckoltia]

Sounds good, will swing you a PM over the next couple of days.

[Bickley]

Hey all I know nothing about rays except I would love to get one one day lol can someone shed some light for me ? What is the difference between hybrid cichlids and hybrid rays ? I thought the hole point was to preserve the species and stop it getting wiped out with poor quality cross breeds... So wouldn't you want the same for anything rays included ? Not having a dig here I personally think If you like the look of the fish it's your tank and you have to look at it every day go for it. I just wouldn't breed and or sell them..

Can we not destroy this post by slagging ppl off or pointless replies and personal attacks like so many other post please... Im generally interested in hearing other people's opinions and learning more about rays as I would like to get some one day

Cheers Bickley

[werdna]

I have cleaned up this thread.
Every one is entitled to their own opinion on hybrid rays.
The last time a non cichlid hybrid was discussed it was decided we would only police cichlids and to let it be.

If any club members would like the stance changed to include rays they can advise a committee member and we can discuss it at the next committee meeting.

Until that happens, let's keep it civil here please and have open discussion

Andrew

[Tarpon]

iv got 10 pairs hooked up at a great price

Good to see you back Dave
You got any pure leopoldi??

[Bowdy]

Would love to see some pics of the pairs if you don't mind dave. Cheers.

Here are a couple pics of Buccal's pure Motoro triple spot. Its a Stunning ray.

[Peckoltia]

Nice Ray.

[SamJohns]

Yeh good one ray.....

[Buccal]

Always best to see the pic of the parents before buying the pups. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Some of the older type moto look quite good when young. But as they mature the dots dull of and don't enlarge in scale with body size. Also with detrimental pups being shipped a little rough then being swapped around a few tanks before you purchase must be given a thought to. Good to buy a shipped ray after it has settled in after Perth arrival. Better still, good to see it eat with a healthy appetite before purchasing. Wouldn't be nice to purchase a pup then see it die from what they call sudden ray death or another called fin curl. Protruding hip bones in pups at the base of the tail can be signs of a pup with no appetite or eating disorder, but not always.
Back on the triple spots, some of the standard modern moto that is not triple spot can actually have a resemblance to triple spot with having a few or some outer spots with a brighter center. Another short burst about two years go a saw what was called super spots.
These were a modern moto look with many faint dots peppering the background. But I do have a feeling these had a ever so slight mantilla gene mix in there. The hybrid thing is very very strong in America and many Asian countries and now Germany is starting to play. It is in the U.k to but not as strong. Designer hybrid stingrays is very fascinating and exciting, the possibilities don't stop and keeps the interest alive and well.
Thanks for plugging up the pics Ray.

Edited by Buccal, 16 September 2012 - 11:04 AM.

[werdna]

I think Bickley has made a valid point that hasnt been answered yet.

In my opinion, this whole designer ray thing is starting to sound very similar to Flowerhorns.

Personally I think there is a very real possibility that some profit driven breeders might sell a poor quality designer ray as a pure ray if it is worth more.
What is an exciting prospect to some just sounds like the start of another Trimac issue to me.

Saying that they are not hybrid because they are from the same genus is wrong, pure and simple.
That is like saying that a Aulonocara jacobfreibergi cross with Aulonocara stuartgranti are not hybrid because they are from the same genus.
Potamotrygon motoro cross with Potamotrygon leopoldi are a hybrid.
Please dont try to call them anything different, I actually find that statement quite offensive.

So the question is, being that the sting ray market appears to be quite profit driven at the moment, and imports into Australia are not allowed so we have a very limited bloodline, what guarantees do we have that the profit driven designer ray craze is not going to destroy the supply of pure rays in Australia?
And if there is no guarantee, why should the promotion and sale of these rays not be banned on this forum?

I am sorry if this sounds argumentative, but these are my thoughts on the matter, and I am assuming there are other fish keepers out there with a similar worry. So IMO it is a genuine question, and one that the committee are probably going to be faced with rather soon.

Thank you

Andrew

[Buccal]

Werdna, there is no problem because no hybrid breeder would ever advertise on pcs. It's not needed. Buyers are to prolific over east for these hybrids.
If it gets to hard like its looking, no one here will have any privilege to ever own a tried for designer ray. You mention profit driven, you can't blame a ray breeder for trying to get back just SOME of the money spent on breeding them with depreciating value at th same time.
You try repetitively buying $150 1kg bags and feeding those ever so hungry gut pigs. By the time a batch pops out your owed the value of the pup to break even. It's the depreciation that has now chewed into any profit. Not even going into electricity on big needed systems.
The rays can not be looked at as cichlids are looked at. The drive by ray owners to own a prettier specimen is what has depleted moto counts. This ray thing is not new, it's been around for years and years. Having to protect pures because they can't be imported, is meaningless, this whole ray scene is not above board as we know with non- allowable import cichlids.
It's people with the drive and knowhow and connections that make things happen to get them in. This is the way more than half of Malawi got into oz in the first place. Rays are just bigger and harder. If the pure moto population in oz drops and people want them, it's simple, more will just be bought in. How do you think Leo's got in, many more leos here than what people think.
It's all underground and most certainly not blacklisted. Because it seems a little new to pcs, the time will tell as after three to four years these things become monsters and need adequate housing unless stunted or male only are kept.
Bad genetics get around in cichlids because kids, novices every Tom dick and Harry have them, plenty to go wrong. With rays, it's the pinnacle of fish keeping and only the supreme keepers that know all to well about specie preservation will look after this evolved topic of hybridization and it's effects. I have found that all ray breeders are 100% honest and tell you exactly what is needed to know with pics and information. It's the middlemen and passer on er rs that tell you just any old thing. The ray market should stay directly breeder to breeder or breeder to keeper. This protects the heritage and true value. See, problem solved, it's not hard.

Edited by Buccal, 16 September 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[Buccal]

This is a tank buster section. Not a Cichlid tank buster only section.