86 replies to this topic

[Tarpon]

I am designing my new home and wish to keep rays. To make allowance for tank space, what is the minimum tank width to permanently keep motoros
Thanks

[zach16]

Hay mate the wider the better id go 3 or 4 foot wide.

[Tarpon]

Thanks, also how big do Leopoldi get to on average?

[ice]

60cm accross the disc is the benchmark for a full grown healthy female.

[zach16]

Yeah ice is right males usually stay a bit smaller.

[Buccal]

Thanks, also how big do Leopoldi get to on average?

Did you know that Leo's are $10,000 per pup ?

[Tarpon]

happy to pay more for guaranteed pure bred leopoldi

[Peckoltia]

4' wide minimum.

My rays are a bit over 12 months old and are around 40cm disk diameter. In a 3' wide tank for now. I'd go 4' as a minimum.

[Buccal]

4' wide minimum.

My rays are a bit over 12 months old and are around 40cm disk diameter. In a 3' wide tank for now. I'd go 4' as a minimum.

Yes, i think so to.
If these minimum sizes for tanks are googled you will see answers steering more towards what you want to hear.
Sure, you can chuck a pup in a 2' wide tank, but how hard will it be to give it up and sell it if no bigger tank is on the cards.
Most owners become very attached and sensitive about their rays.
As your rays approach the 40cm mark the males are quite noticeably smaller.
In many cases, once the beast hits that 40-45cm mark, people run out of room or can't handle their sizes.
But on a bigger note, once the female hits 60cm (and that's not huge), she is twice as big and heavy as the same age male.
What has to be thought of is, not just the size tank in relation to fish size but the habits of rays.
Rays cruise and travel distances exploring and foraging for food.
Being crammed in a small space does not allow its physical and mental needs for filled.
This leads to mental disorders and a horrible way to live their lives.
I went to a ray keepers house (that wishes to stay anonymous, not a pcs member) and I'm not kidding, her 8ft square and 1m high aquarium was to small for this female monster Mantilla.
No word of lie, it was the size of a large 4wd car tyre, and likely unliftable.
Obviously Peckoltia is doing something right to have his rays grow so quick, probably high water quality and premium foods. Nice bright spots and lots of them to.
So to anyone becoming more ever so interested in rays, please ask your self. "do I want These rays for my deep long lasting interest for them. Or am I being selfish in a short term manner. ???"

[Peckoltia]

Great post Buccal.

I agree with everything said. My male actually got the best start when I forst got my pups, he is now the smallest of my 4 adults. I have noticed that when females become pregnant that their growth will also sky rocket. The amount of food they intake will also double.

I find it an odd practice people scrapping for the cheapest possible rays they can find. If your struggling to pay the $400-500 an honest breeder is asking, then rays are not for you. You simply can not afford to keep them.

To put this into perspective. In the lasty month my rays ate a 1kg bag of hikari carnivore and 2 bags of frozen prawns (1kg per bag). That is about $140 worth of food in 4 weeks. That is $35 a week in food alone. My rays are nowhere near full grown. I could get away with feeding them a cheaper diet. But why would I? I made the committment to keep these animals, and i'll spend my last dollar to give them the best.

The proof is in the pudding. 2 of my 3 girls are about to give birth at 14months of age and are pushing 40cm disk diameter.

I feel that people are trying to sell 'cheap' rays, because they like to be the man and it makes them feel important. But these are not cheap animals to care for. Buy a group of rays and you may as well have gone down to the pet store and bought yourself a dog.

My experience in life is 'the middle man' is a lot like a used car sales man. . .

My rays will be in a 3' wide tank then into a 6' wide tank. In all honesty I'd probably even like to upgrade that tank one day too.

my 2 bob.

Edited by Peckoltia, 24 October 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[Poncho]

What has to be thought of is, not just the size tank in relation to fish size but the habits of rays.
Rays cruise and travel distances exploring and foraging for food.
Being crammed in a small space does not allow its physical and mental needs for filled.
This leads to mental disorders and a horrible way to live their lives.

So to anyone becoming more ever so interested in rays, please ask your self. "do I want These rays for my deep long lasting interest for them. Or am I being selfish in a short term manner. ???"

By that rationale it would seem to me that anyone keeping rays is ultimately being selfish then - unless of course you have a whole river to keep them in. But true to form, most people who buy these things will soon enough get bored and pass onto someone else. They'll go around and eventually die or end up in a LFS so that the rest of us can abuse these retailers for not providing the proper care for these fish that they've tried to rescue and keep out of natural waterways lest the authorities further tighten the screws on their industry.
Perhaps that's why they'll be making them noxious soon. This would extend to most tankbusters too.

A good debate to have I reckon, though not sure we'll be able to have it diplomatically on this forum. Just putting it out there in the hope we can have some healthy discussion for a change but in the meantime, flame away - I can handle it

[Peckoltia]

Your post sounds great in theory.

But can be answered with one pretty simple question. How many rays have you seen? or another how many have you seen in a LFS? I can probably count the latter on one hand.

I dont get your post Poncho. Authorities will make them noxious because it appears that too m,any end up in an LFS rather than being dumped in a local waterway? huh?

I think if they ever are made noxious it will be because they grow large. The fact that they are slow to reproduce, have few young, require specific water parameters and their expense will never come to mind to the 'experts' making the laws.

Ray keepers don't quickly ecome bored of their animals. They are too bloody awesome. They aren't like Malawis that people keep for 3 - 6 months get bored and sell them

Edited by Peckoltia, 24 October 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[Tarpon]

Thanks guys I wasn't going to have my giant heated indoor pond but looks like I have to now. Back to the drawing board with the architect for the 50th time....

[Poncho]

Seen quite a few rays actually - I get around more than just forums and know that they aren't nearly as rare as some would like to make out. I haven't seen them in LFS yet but 5 years ago I hadn't seen an emperor cichlid in a lfs either. All of a sudden they started appearing and they were already of size too.

You're reading what I'm saying and twisting it to suit your own logic.

Authorities may determine that these fish are unsuitable as aquarium specimens because they start ending up in lfs's to live out there lives - hence a hobbyist cannot provide the adequate habitat for the duration of these animals lives. Malawis are entirely different. They are most suited to a tank environment, which is why they are readily adapted into an aquarium environment (not talking about large haps).

Anyway, I'm reading what buccal wrote here. A ray is something that roams around a waterbody scavenging over great distances. Denying them their ability to follow this natural instinct leads to mental disorders and is inhumane (or as buccal put it, a horrible existence).

So, is this nonsense or is a 4 foot wide tank representative of the Amazon river?

Hope you don't mind me going slightly off topic Tarpon.

[Buccal]

Taking 100% welfare consideration for the ray ? Yes, ultimately in some form selfish.
But, moto and Mantilla are some of the bigger species.
Particular individuals pound along in size growth. Some are runts that stay a smaller size and other runts are just slow to start and power on later.

If no intention of breeding, a better decision would be one to two males, obviously much smaller.
Also so far, all seem stuck on one track (the fish tank)
The best way obviously for viewing rays is from above in the same way as koi.
None of my rays have ever seen a tank since they left their breeders.
It's a easy solution, 10mm mdf will allow you to build the living quarters the rays deserve.
Send the mdf built box to a fiberglass mob and job done.
My breeding pens are 3.6 x 1.8 meters and I have 4 of them.
My rays are always playing with each other and it can be clearly seen they are very happy.
Some of them are 60cm disks !!!
If the owner is not handy with home made filtration, then a second hand pool sand filter fits the job nicely.
With the building interest in rays here in Perth and the pcs, we must get the stingrays requirements right before people start taking the plunge.
I noticed a little interest a few years back when the pups were over 2.5k each.
A few people bought these rays with out knowing to much.
I did notice in the quokka and on the pcs the odd Motoro male for sale.
Obviously the owners not meeting the requirements and losing one then selling the one they had left.
I would like to see some more intelligent talk with questions and detailed discussion.
And not being about prices and the cheapest and quickest to score one.
Believe it or not there are many efficient ways to house rays with alternative filtration choices, let's all think about getting that right first .
BUT, it's fine to temporarily house them in small setups while being pups, but, as said above, have a plan first.

[Buccal]

Seen quite a few rays actually - I get around more than just forums and know that they aren't nearly as rare as some would like to make out. I haven't seen them in LFS yet but 5 years ago I hadn't seen an emperor cichlid in a lfs either. All of a sudden they started appearing and they were already of size too.

You're reading what I'm saying and twisting it to suit your own logic.

Authorities may determine that these fish are unsuitable as aquarium specimens because they start ending up in lfs's to live out there lives - hence a hobbyist cannot provide the adequate habitat for the duration of these animals lives. Malawis are entirely different. They are most suited to a tank environment, which is why they are readily adapted into an aquarium environment (not talking about large haps).

Anyway, I'm reading what buccal wrote here. A ray is something that roams around a waterbody scavenging over great distances. Denying them their ability to follow this natural instinct leads to mental disorders and is inhumane (or as buccal put it, a horrible existence).

So, is this nonsense or is a 4 foot wide tank representative of the Amazon river?

Hope you don't mind me going slightly off topic Tarpon.

Shops will never take rays, I'm sure they will agree, they need more attention and they cost to much to feed and keep live or to look healthy anyway.
All fish we keep are denied of their free will, they just don't know it. This is precisely spoken for the fish.
We can never represent full scale nature alternatives.
But there must be a line drawn, what is over board and what is under board.
Let's get it into perspective, if the rays tail bends when turning around in the tank, hah, well its clear it's not good.
It's suffice to say maybe ?, a minimum size space for the size of ray at the time would be something that the beast can do loose figure of eight movements with no body parts touching the sides.
Over east culture wise there are a lot of big tank buster owners. Perth is minimal for this.
We are very behind in this.
It is pleasant to be in contact with east breeders and keepers and having cultural differences makes it very exciting.
Did you know that in Honkong over 80% of the population have a fish tank in their home in some shape or form.
Other cultures are so so so passionate about their fish, it's crazy, so serious.

[Poncho]

Absolutely buccal - more talk needed on keeping rays, not selling as everyone already knows everything about that.

So ultimately if someone is buying a ray, they need to be prepared to build some kind of pool/pond at least 1.8m square?

I'd hazard a guess and say that not even half of the current ray keepers would be realistically prepared, let alone able to do that. I'd go further and suggest one breeder could probably satisfy the market of hobbyists who can actually provide proper care of these things well within the breeding life of their animals.

Now, and I'm hoping you don't take this to heart, where does the responsibility lie in relation to this situation where we will have an excess of rays and not enough capable hobbyists to buy them. The hobbyist who buys one anyway even though they won't provide properly or the breeder(s) who produce excess animals and conveniently remove themselves out of the equation once the animal passes hands to look for another potential sucker......I mean buyer?

These are questions that authorities will ask if they are smart - and they aren't dumb like some would like to think, just hypocritical.

Smilies here to prove I'm not angry or upset

[Peckoltia]

Poncho - I am not twisting anything you are saying.

You claim they will become noxious SOON, because the authorities may deem them inappropriate for tanks, due too many end up living out their lives in an LFS, yet you are yet to see one at a store?

That logic needs no twisting my friend. It's twisted enough as is.

I'm at work, will put some time into this thread when I have it.

Happy fish keeping.

Edited by Peckoltia, 24 October 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[werdna]

http://www.perthcich...?showtopic=6208

Steve was trying to sell some on here from Riverreef
I saw some available at Pisces when they were open
Malaga had some too.

On phone, about to walk into an exam so can't provide more links.

[Peckoltia]

I'm not sure what the point of that was?

Malaga's were owned by the store, and not for sale.

Steve at Rivereef had a pair. We are now up to two.

Pisces? ancient history. What did they have another couple? now up to 4.

I'll even add another 2 that I saw at Seaview. Again. Pups.

What they all have in common is they are all pups. 6 so far. I'll even be generous and say theirs 10.... 10 pups over 10years?

I am yet to see 1 adult in a store. Especially one that has been dumped on the store by an owner due to not being able to care for them.

10 pups, over 10years. Without a single adult cited. I'd hardly say the 'poor' stores around Perth are having to deal with an abundance of big rays that people can no longer care for.

*edit - spelling

Edited by Peckoltia, 24 October 2012 - 03:10 PM.