13 replies to this topic

[Den]

On the blood worm packets it says they are treated for parasites, so the manufacturers are admitting that blood worms can carry parasites prior to their "treatment", but over the past several years I have noticed more and more that people who regularly feed blood worms eventually end up with their fish getting parasite problems, is this a coincidence? I'm not sure.

 

I also notice that the sections of the hobby that are the biggest feeders of bloodworms seem to also be the same sections plagued with parasites, for example discus keepers, american cichlid keepers, pleco(omnivorous species) keepers are all plagued by problems with parasitic worms and hexamita, where as the parts of the hobby such as rift lake fish keepers who use less or no blood worms dont seem to have as much issues with these parasites, is this a coincidence? Im not sure.

 

Personally I think if bloodworms cant be proven they are 100% parasite free they should be banned from sale and until I'm convinced with scientific evidence that they are 100% safe then I will continue to recommend to my friends and fellow hobbyists to never use them, because to me they appear to be a risk.

 

Can anyone prove blood worms are 100% safe? if not, should there be an investigation into this? if there was a dog or cat food that was suspected of hosting parasites and making our pets sick or worse what would dog and cat clubs do? What I'm saying is obviously not scientific, I could be completely wrong, its just my observation.

 

Parasites are causing more problems in the cichlid hobby than we can imagine and I believe many deaths and poor health due to parasites is being blamed on other things, like water quality etc because we just aren't getting informed.

[dori]

would also like to know about this

[Mr_docfish]

Bloodworms (midge larvae) are grown in putrid environments (like duck ponds) so the bacteria and parasite content is high.... But..., gamma radiation, paricularly fir aquaculture products covers the issue of any live, viable bacteria or parasite.
I have never seen a correlation between bloodworm feeding and parasites.... But I have moticed over the years, a correlation between feeding of bloodworms and issues like mycobaceriosus.... This is not due to the bacteria coming from the frozen food, but secondary from bacteria the fish carry....

You have to consider the processes that have a play in hiw we get our frozen foods....

To get frozen food processed through our QLD or VIC gamma radiation fascility, containers are held up for days.... And the process producess heat.... So a number of packets on the outer sides of the container become defrosted for a period of time....
Now, if you eat an aquotic organism that has been allowed to be defrosted and refrozen, you will get a rather upset gut.... Think of our poor fish.... Any bugs they may carry will be made evident after feeding any poor food... Moudy food, off food, or bad refrozen frizen food...
Best thing to do is choose better quality brands or batches if food.... I throw out a heap of frozen packs every now and then if I think any part of a batch is not suitable for sale...,
This is not a problem with packs where the contents may be partially freeze dried (due to a damaged foil seal) - where some fish may not like the texture, the food quality is not damaged health wise..... But age of the packet can come into it.... So choose you frozen food with some intellegence.... If you would not buy it if ot were a prawn in a freezer, then dont buy it for your fish.

On terms of imported frozen food containing parasites, it is probable, but with the gamma radiation process, I believe the symptoms more to do with secondary effects of poor diet rather than introduction of parasites directly..... Though, the gamma ratiation process is never 110% effective..... So plausible...
Either way, check the condition of the food you buy, as if you are going to serve it to your own family, before you buy it.

My 2 cents....

Thanks to Den for bringing the topic up....

Luckily, due to self regulation within our industry, the better quality frozen foods tend to take over from the shitty ones... Eventually...

Cheers
Oliver

[bigjohnnofish]

touch wood... never had a problem with blood worms.... but i have always bought hikari and intra in recent years.... i do avoid aqua one blood worms (cheaper) and any un-named brands....

 

or have i been spinning the chamber on the six shooter successfully all these years ???

 

p.s. thanks to olley for after hours service today... enjoy the beers

[MrLeifBeaver]

Very interesting topic. I didn't know that. This brings up a couple things that I have been thinking.

 

My Discus do seem to love blood worms, but Bermont was saying they have 'hooks' on them which can upset the stomachs of Discus and other fish, so he's been using Aussie Black worms which are both free of 'hooks' and also freeze dried which I would think would kill more bacteria and also one 'brick' is the equivelent to 4 frozen blookworm bricks. I think I might investigate these blackworms more.

 

Also, I bought 'on special' frozen food from my LFS. They were selling cheap due to a freezer malfunction but had re-frozen it. In hindsight they should have just thrown it all out. rather than the potential selling a dodgy frozen food to us customers.

 

Thanks for your insight guys, this is a perfect reason why I joined the forum, never would have known.

[Den]

I've seen people have problems after using every brand, and when you see a fish that's been healthy for over six months come down with worms and other parasites after eating blood worms, you start asking questions, I've just seen it happen way to many times to feel its a coincidence.

 

I'm also speaking from pure ignorance here but I wonder if gamma radiation has its limits, perhaps depth? can it get effective penetration through all the foil and plastic packaging? can it kill worm eggs and spores? spores and worm eggs seem almost indestructible so even if they could kill all the living parasites there are still eggs and spores that could possibly survive? how is the process done? is there room for human error? can they miss small or large sections of a batch being treated? Too many questions about this product and too many coincidences for me to feel its a safe food because as they admit on their packaging, their product contains parasites, they simply claim they treated them, so you have to feel confident their treatment is 100% effective every packet you buy and use, personally I'm not confident.

 

touch wood... never had a problem with blood worms.... but i have always bought hikari and intra in recent years.... i do avoid aqua one blood worms (cheaper) and any un-named brands..

 

Hi Johnno, put some of your fishes poohs under a microscope and you might be surprised what you will find they are carrying. Some fish seem less sensitive to parasites, and catfish are less likely to show signs because of the secret way they live. I've seen bristle nose infested with bugs and they eat and carry on as normal, but they will grow slower, and they will be weakened and prone to secondary internal and external infections, less likely to spawn and smaller spawns, so your fish could be infested with parasites and you wouldnt even know and you might blame things the parasites are causing on other factors, drop a discus in with them for a few months, a discus makes the perfect canary in the coal mine, because when they catch parasites its immediately noticeable, in their behavior, colour and poohs all changes for the worse.

Edited by Den, 19 November 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[werdna]

There are thousands of articles on gamma radiation.

It changes an organisms dna.

Irradiating potatoes stops it going to seed.

Seeds will no longer germinate

And eggs will definitely be killed.

 

It is used on medical equipment.

 

I would be 100% confident with gamma irradiation.

[Den]

I dont have a lot of time but I googled "gamma radiation effect on parasites", in 2 seconds I found this article that seems to state gamma radiation is not 100% effective on parasitic worms?

 

http://www.parasitol.../kjp-33-297.pdf

 

Im completely ignorant but from a brief read it seems that Gamma radiation doesnt seem to be a simple point and shoot machine, seems there is a complexity to using it and if there is a stuff up its ineffective, and we all know people and machines never stuff up, no never, sorry for the sarcasm, but I couldnt help it, hahaha and realistically people arent going to treat fish worm food the same seriousness as they would human food or more serious things, because lets face it they arent facing any penalty if they do a bad job, it cant be traced and no police officer will make an arrest if someone causes a fish ill health or worse,

[werdna]

http://www.daff.gov....raft-review.pdf

50kGy is used currently

That study shows 200Gy is effective.

And at a dose of 6.5Gy the worms were retarded in growth and reproductive organs.

So the dose used by DAFF is 250x more powerful than that study showed effective.

 

Personally I think if bloodworms cant be proven they are 100% parasite free they should be banned from sale and until I'm convinced with scientific evidence that they are 100% safe then I will continue to recommend to my friends and fellow hobbyists to never use them, because to me they appear to be a risk.

 

If you come up with a theory it isn't up to the rest of the world to prove you wrong, you must backup your theory with some form of evidence.

You have no evidence other than personal opinion.

And you state yourself that you are ignorant to the process.

So how does that put you in a position to state they should be banned from sale?

 

Your question has caused me to spend a small amount of time researching it, and IMO the system used is safe and your theory doesn't hold water.

If you can research yourself and find some supporting evidence I am sure DAFF would be interested.

[Den]

In parts of that report it says animals were getting parasites even after the pet food was treated with gamma rays? seems dosage is critical, if someone gets the dose wrong on a batch it may not be effective, hence there is always room for human and mechanical error in everything. As the blood worm packaging states, the product contains parasites, you have to make a choice as to whether you believe that in the billions of worms getting sold every year that every single parasite is take care of.

[sandgroper]

Nothing is a 100% when humans are involved, except that there will be a stuff up. You have only got to look around you in the world of business these days to see that to many don't give a rats ass. They just take your money and run, bugger the customer.

[Angelo]

does de-worming help? I de-worm my discus tanks once very 3 months and haven't had a single loss till date. bloodworm is part of their diet and I've never had any issues. 

[bigjohnnofish]

gee 250 times the dose needed to kill the parasites... to me that doesnt leave a brass iota of a chance of survival if your a parasite lol....

 

i agree human error is exactly that...

 

but i believe ollys theory of your fish prob already carry the parasite and your fish consuming some re-frozen bloodworm gives parasites optimum growth/propagation potential that it gets affected and hence den your theory of feeding followed by problems...

 

and the literature that says your bloodworms contain parasites is prob true... but it also doesnt say they are alive either - same as the blood worms themselves

 

if your feeding bloodworms den and then you have problems its prob just your hexamita flaring up

[Den]

That could be true in some cases Johnno but I can tell you Ive seen treated fish that are 100% parasite free and fine for up to 6 months all of a sudden come down with parasites after being fed blood worms.

 

I have friends who used to regularly feed BW and always had recurring problems with parasites even after successful treatments, since treating and no more bloodworms they have no more parasites issues, sure it can all be a coincidence, Im not claiming anything scientific, but I seen too many things over the years to consider it all a coincidence, and regarding the gamma treatment, if you read the different reports its not 100% fool proof, I read one report where they said more parasitic worms came out of a radiated group than a non radiated group in a test, sure it helps, but it doesn't seem fool proof.