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Koi Herpes Virus


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#1 Den

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 08:42 PM

So that knuckle dragging meathead Barney rubble joyce has decided to release a herpes virus "found in Israel" into our waterways in an attempt to eliminate feral carp, no one knows if its going to work, its already been proven that it wont work overseas. Once the virus is out there we are stuck with it for good, millions of tonnes of virus infected and diseased fish rotting in our water ways, what could possibly go wrong? I'm sure it will be a huge success like other Government programs such as introduction of gambusia and the cane toad.

 

Ive been told by a vet that this virus can be spread by water birds, so its likely to spread to our ponds and tanks eventually, so watch your prized koi and goldfish, they could end up wiped out, and if you consider mutations over the long term this could be a potential catastrophic disaster.

 

I'm so pissed off about this, I wish we could stop this from happening, the Government is such a disaster when it comes to our aquatic environments, they fail to tackle the true causes of water habitat destruction which is farming and mining and they always go for easy targets instead, dammit Im jumping in my skin with anger, how can this one completely stupid moron make such an important decision for our Country!



#2 dicky7

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 10:26 PM

to answer the question is easy really ..... ask the people who voted for them ;)



#3 malawiman85

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 10:50 PM

As an ornamental fish keeper I see your point. I even agree with most of what you are saying. I dont believe the problem it will cause will be as big as carp currently are in Australia's fresh water systems.
The evidence suggests native species arent susceptible to the virus. I understand masses of dead fish rotting in the rivers is hardly ideal but the plan is to clean them up.
Its no secret im pretty passionate about native fish both in their native environment and in aquaria and I say go nuts, release the shit out of the virus!
But only after we are 100% sure the virus cant be transmitted to native species... I tend to think scientists have already given this some thought.

#4 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 02:45 AM

hey lets release another virus - hey what could go wrong - shakes ones head..... viruses mutate and change with environmental stimulation - i can see it wont mutate and effect humans but i could see it changing to effect more than the target fish.....

 

biosecurity australia is trying its best to keep out foreign and exotic diseases -> viral,bacterial and fungal..... and we go introducing something that could potentially be a disaster for marine life.... 

 

im not a scientist or a marine biologist but this concerns me and seems pointless... 

 

why not put a price per head or kilo for koii/carp caught from the river.... give the lazy unemployed something to do... ferals fishing ferals :)



#5 malawiman85

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 08:39 AM

It could be a potential disater, could it?
Not saying your wrong but what is the basis for that assertion?
Is there any science at all to back that up?

I know the government made a mess of a number of initiatives (cane toads, gambusia, etc) but they happened in an environmentally ignorant age. Gambusia 1920's and cane toads in the 1930's.

#6 Bostave

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 09:04 AM

The problem with physical capturing of carps is that people might use fishing techniques that may cause damage to the environment and non target species. These techniques might be netting, using anaesthetics in large amounts, etc. Using a virus as control measure to target the specific species would be less harmful as viruses are species specific. The media release from Csiro mentions a low probability of the virus mutating and have acknowledged few cases of infection in humans but those cases need further investigations (according to me as there may have been variations in the immunity or other factors). a genetic analysis of these viruses could help in determining the causes. As far as contamination into residential ponds goes, isolation and disinfection could prevent the viruses from getting there. I support the use of virus from what I have read from Csiro and appreciate that they have considered the massive task of picking up the dead carps asap to have no or low negative environmental impact from the dead carps.

http://www.csiro.au/...ontrol-of-carp#

Edited by Bostave, 05 May 2016 - 11:07 AM.


#7 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 01:10 AM

 The media release from Csiro mentions a low probability of the virus mutating and have acknowledged few cases of infection in humans but those cases need further investigations

 

  As far as contamination into residential ponds goes, isolation and disinfection could prevent the viruses from getting there. 

 

those 2 statements concern me deeply... what exactly is low probability ? 5% 10% 1% - all too high for my liking - needs to be 100% safe or dont do it simple... imagine this virus mutating and being spread by water birds to private owners ponds... all it would take is one pond owner to take some fish back to a shop or even sell them privately and before we know it its spread like wildfire.. and then what happens when it gets into ornamental fish - we will all be crying foul... and because its a govt that released the virus - we wont be able to sue for losses... 

 

2nd statement is of grave concern also... spreading to humans - now if you got this virus and it caused you injury pain or death your spouse will be outraged (hopefully lol) and then would they be able to sue the govt ? doubt it very much.... 

 

100% SAFE OR DONT DO IT - could be a huge disaster and the govt should know better... shame shame shame 



#8 Bostave

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 04:08 AM

Virulence of viruses are specific to species. Virus outside a host is dormant and only when inside the host whose genetic constitution suits the virus, then only the virus becomes active and hijacks the biological process of the host to produce copies of it own. However the virulence of the virus strain determines the affect it can have on the host.
The scientists at Csiro have identified this particular strain to be highly specific towards controlling the carps and safe towards humans. Unless bigjohnnofish you have some carp genetic composition in you, you should not be worried. There is a possibility of injury and death everytime a person is on the roads but that does not stop people from using them. So by your estimate of low probability you should just build a cocoon and stay in.
There are people with herpes using public and natural water bodies. It is not safe but the likelyhood of contracting the viruses are extremely low due the amount of water volume, human immunity, disinfection, etc.
The carps are causing an ecological disaster that can has the potential to affect humanity severely than the likely the virus would cause. This particular virus has been identified across a pool of virus for its no or low virulence towards humans and high virulence in carps. Its dormancy outside a carp makes its safe.
To not go ahead with this issue just because it might end up killing ornamental fish that you keep at home and plays no part in ecology is basically selfish as the great goal is sacrificed over menial issues on a global scale. Preventing contamination is easier than to not do it and leave the carp invasion not address.
People at Csiro are experts and their vast knowledge makes me trust them. Bigjohnnofish you have the right to be scared but when it is explained to you that it is safe you should trust it too
Unless bigjohnnofish has the experience of working with viruses.
I would like to apologise if some of my post comes across as rude. It was not intended. I am passionate about aquatic ecology and I get angry when there is scare tactics and selfishness hampers qualified people from making the right decisions.

Edited by Bostave, 06 May 2016 - 10:40 AM.


#9 Delapool

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 07:22 AM

I don't know of any other way to try controlling them? It's good to see this thread with questions. I believe netting has been done and when I was a kid fishing in QLD it was illegal to release them back into the waterway if caught. I'm a little surprised the virus is going to be so effective. Rabbits are still around? Be nice if cane toads could be safely gotten rid of.

#10 Westie

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 09:42 AM

Cane toad golf is good fun. I find the pitching wedge is my golf club of choice.
cane_toad_golf_course_t620.jpg



#11 Delapool

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 07:08 PM

Slightly off-topic but we were discussing which is worse - rabbits, cane toads or carp?!

Edited by Delapool, 06 May 2016 - 07:08 PM.


#12 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 01:43 AM

how many failures has the govt instigated ???? far too many to take further risks.... 

 

just exactly what do koi/carp do that is so bad for the economy that it would crash and push us all into the depths of recession ???

 

 

Slightly off-topic but we were discussing which is worse - rabbits, cane toads or carp?!

 

dont forget to add foxes , feral cats , feral pigs and i did a quick google on invasive species the govt has introduced and the list is massive... the amount of insects , bugs , fungii , plants , birds , fish and other animals also.... 

 

ah what the heck lets introduce more viruses too - hey what could go wrong :) lol fairy clowns.... 

 

p.s. bostave you'd have to come up with some serious insults for me to blink an eyelid and than some before i get offended mate :) 



#13 Bostave

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 06:01 AM

Dear bigjohnnofish, I was not trying to offend you. I tried to explain the principles/techniques used for eradication of invasive species. There is a big list of such species and they have been introduced intentionally or unintentionally by humans. You cannot comprehend the the damage they can these cause. This is plain and simple and not an insult. Based on your comments what damage they can cause and linking to recession. People at Csiro know what they are doing and done the research. I would advice you to read to some textbooks on ecology and biotechnology, before you make any more comments. You are insulting yourself with your comments that clearly show you have no understanding of this issue and just want to be scared. The government did not introduce most of the invasive species but early settlers did. Cane toads were an exception but that was done with inadequate research.

#14 Poncho

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 09:01 AM

The last sentence is exactly where fear is created. Traditionally Research like this seems to always be labelled adequate and comprehensive prior to an initiative being implemented. Then when things don't go as planned it's called inadequate but by then it's too late. The average joe cannot understand the literature being released as it's very technical, so massive concern from the public can hardly be surprising with the lack of consultation on the proposal that has happened before the big announcements. In principal I'd support vbiological control of carp but the way it has been presented has me feeling like there's a bunch of Cowboys in the drivers seat looking for glory and not as worried about consequences as they should be.

In regards to sharing genetic composition with carp, koi and goldfish (all are carp), I can understand why our ranga community would be concerned.

Delapool the answer to your question depends on what environments feature you most value. Carp have had the most impact on waterways and water bodies. Cane toads have decimated tropical and sub tropical native fauna. Rabbits have significantly degraded arid and temperate terrestrial landscapes and displaced the native mammals that occupy the same habitat.

I was involved in setting up a fairly large rabbit eradication program down in lake Clifton and lake Preston. It's seemingly impossible to completely eradicate rabbits but the program was viewed as a big success. We didn't have a silver bullet treatment option but instead used a number of treatments and staged them with strategic timing. First calicivirus was released to knock off the bulk of the population but there are always a number that are genetically resistant and you've taken away their main competition so isolated release of the virus would strengthen the population in the long term. So we followed up by gassing warrens in breeding season to knock the population down further. For the ones we missed we then waited for young to be ready to forage for food and laid runnels of grain laced with pindone. It really knocked them on the head but they are rabbits and a few years down the track we are seeing the population start to recover.

My point is with carp though is that I hope they complement the release of the virus with other treatment options like electro fishing, putting a bounty on them for anglers to catch and destroy and whatever else they have in their pockets. Just releasing the virus in isolation won't completely eradicate carp but will leave a population behind that are more resistant to the virus and hence you only get to use it a few times before it stops being effective - that's when they start looking into deliberately modify the virus and you then have good reason to be concerned.

#15 Bostave

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 09:35 AM

It is difficult to achieve resistance to virus when compared to achieving resistance to bacteria. This is due to the ability of virus to mimic itself as a part of the host and then take over the host mechanism. This is one of the reasons that virus are species specific. The use of viruses as biological control is like a heat seeking missiles. This technique is passive but more effective. The virulence of this strain of virus is high and would kill most the carps quickly than the carps develop immunity which is highly impossible due to the fact that fish have simpler immune system compared to mammals.

#16 Poncho

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 10:11 AM

Yep but has the virus been tested in a simulated or trial ecosystem with complex and interacting biological processes and functions or has it just been tested in a sterile lab where no opportunity for other things to influence results are present? The former sounds like an adequate amount of research while the latter approach I would say is being a cowboy.

I'm all for control of carp and using a virus cos it will be the most effective way, but you have to appreciate the reservations people have and that these are justified based on past experiences with CSIRO and biological treatments. Calicivirus was thought to be adequately contained on an island while they tested based on adequate research. But as it happened it got to the mainland via a bird or something I think before they were ready and started spreading. Fortunately there were no real negative side effects but I highly doubt they knew that for sure when it was released accidentally.

#17 Bostave

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 11:14 AM

There may not be an issue of containment as this time they are releasing in open water. And relying on the virus's efficacy toward carps only. They might have selected this strain for it least probability for mutation or may have switched off its ability to do so.
People have the right to have their reservations but they should spread fears without actually understanding the issue.

#18 sandgroper

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 11:46 AM

I trust the government this much .......0....... based on their history of lying every second of every minute of every day. Just switch on the t.v or radio and listen to their dribble.



#19 Bostave

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 12:06 PM

The science is being attacked and defended in this thread. Not the government. Open a new thread to do that.

#20 dicky7

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 01:59 PM

some more info https://www.newscien...es-into-rivers/






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