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Hybrids For Sale


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#1 Chris Perth

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 05:10 PM

Attached File  Picture1.png   80.49KB   39 downloads

 

I have just seen this on Gumtree 

http://www.gumtree.c...-jag/1130815876

 

I hope this clown is not a member of PCS or the Forums - if so he should be removed, and if he is a member he should know better, I am afraid I get a bit wound up about crosses - they are a disgrace to the hobby and trash our already diluted gene pool.

 

I sincerely hope no member of PCS or the Forums will consider dealing with this guy. The only thing in his favour is that he has declared them as crosses, and not trying to flog them as dovii etc.

My appologies for going off the handle.

 



#2 Westie

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 06:38 PM

Hey belly
This ad was already put on the gumtree post. Just another gumnut with NFI

#3 Rodders02

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 08:39 PM

.

Edited by Rodders02, 10 January 2017 - 09:57 AM.


#4 Poncho

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Posted 26 November 2016 - 08:22 AM

The thing is, if you pay this person for their hybrids then they are going to produce more to sell and think that people want them.

#5 Rodders02

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Posted 26 November 2016 - 08:26 AM

The thing is, if you pay this person for their hybrids then they are going to produce more to sell and think that people want them.


I'm trying to buy the female dovii off him as well

#6 Androo

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Posted 26 November 2016 - 04:46 PM

I was going to offer to 'house' them but if you're willing to pay he wint be interested in that

#7 Rodders02

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Posted 26 November 2016 - 10:23 PM

I was going to offer to 'house' them but if you're willing to pay he wint be interested in that


Yeah he doesn't want to break them up and I can't really take the pair so if you're able to 'house' them that'd be a treat lol

#8 Androo

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 10:15 AM

He didnt reply to me

#9 Androo

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 11:01 PM

He said hes selling them for $8 each and almost all sold
He also said 'there $8 each' so it shows the level of intelligence we are dealing with

#10 Delapool

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:15 AM

Can't believe people are buying them, I just don't get why anyone would.

#11 Rodders02

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:27 AM

He said hes selling them for $8 each and almost all soldHe also said 'there $8 each' so it shows the level of intelligence we are dealing with


Yeah that's what he said to me, I'm not buying any for $8 either. Dudes an idiot.

#12 humbug

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 08:37 AM

The issue of hybrids is a never-ending one.  The internet has had some great positive impacts on the hobby – but also some real negatives.

These days its soooooooo much easier to contact people and locate those rare fish etc.  We share information, have research material about new fish and equipment at our fingertips, network with others with a common interest, share in our disasters and triumphs . . . . . .
 

But in my view, it’s also come with a HUGE downside.  In the main, hybrids are bred and sold by people new to the hobby who don’t understand the issues these fish cause.  Back in the “old days” before the advent of the internet, people traded fish they bred through shops, or through clubs.  In both cases there was a degree of “mentoring” of newbies to the hobby by knowledgeable retailers and old-hand fish keepers.  These experienced people were able to provide a degree of filtering of many/most of the hybrids.  They were able to advise newbies of the problems hybrids caused to the hobby, how to choose tank mates to reduce risk of accidental hybridisation, etc, etc. 

 

Today we have a SIGNIFICANT issue of hybrids in the hobby.  I look at “for sale” ads on many local Facebook groups around Australia and find a sea of “look alikes” and “wanabies”.  I see post after post of people asking for IDs on fish, and response after response from people with limited or no real knowledge. 

 

So many species have been lost in this country to hybridisation, and I suspect many species are at real risk of being lost within the next few years.  The majority of the cichlid species can no longer be imported into Australia.  What we have here is what we’ve got.  I know – I’m preaching to the converted here, but it’s obviously something I’m passionate about.

 

So – the question is how do we combat the problem??  As has been said, I don’t believe that buying up hybrids is the answer.  It’s just fuelling the problem.  If someone sees that they sell, then its incentive to breed another batch.  Nothing more off-putting to that new breeder than to be landed with a tank of hungry mouths that nobody wants.  And with the quantity of hybrids out there – I’m guessing that nobody’s pockets are deep enough to make any real impact on the problem.

I suggest it needs to be a multi-pronged “attack”
 

1.  Education – we all need to help spread the message about the damage hybrids are doing to the hobby. That message needs to be repeated over and over again, as there is a continual influx of new people into the hobby. Newbies buy poor quality fish and hybrids because they don’t know better, and that’s what fuels the market. 
 

2. Promotion – we need to be promoting the quality fish that are still available in the hobby.  We need to be sharing photos of our pure fish on Facebook, in forums, etc, etc, to show what people are missing out on by chasing Gumtree and Facebook “bargains”.  There aren’t too many people who wouldn’t prefer a tank full of colourful, healthy fish over a tank of insipid grey, poor quality ones.  There aren’t too many people who wouldn’t prefer to have good looking fish without having to resort to using “colour enhancing” products.  There aren’t too many hobbyists who get the breeding bug and wouldn’t prefer to breed fish that actually have a market value and are sought after by others.  Once people realise there are decent fish available with a real wow factor, they hunt them out rather than buying the hybrids. 
 

3. Don’t be a part of the problem!  – For anyone breeding fish, we all need to be super critical of what we have in our tanks.  We need to be critical of the fish when we buy them, and as they grow.  We need to be critical of them when they reach maturity and breed.  We need to be critical of how we manage those fish, and house them.  And we need to be particularly critical of the fry we breed as they grow, as this is one of the best opportunities for assessing the purity of parents!  We need to be critical of the fish we keep IRRESPECTIVE of where they came from!!!  We need to be critical irrespective of how long we have kept a species, and how well we THINK we know it.  We need to do thorough research of the species we keep, hunting out photos of fish in their natural habitat, and examples of wild caught fish.  We need to look at photos from credible websites with info peer-reviewed by experts in their fields. If our fish don’t look like the photos – we need to not make excuses!  No, speciation DOESN’T occur in our tanks in a couple of generations!  We ALL need to be careful we aren’t contributing to the problem!!!!!

 

 

I’m hopeful.  We have seen a significant rise in the number of hobbyists seeking out good quality fish in recent times.  Not sure if it’s as a result of the latest round of import restrictions, or if the message is starting to take hold, or if it’s just that enough people are becoming dissatisfied with the offerings of crap fish from Gumtree, Facebook groups and the lesser aquarium shops and chain stores.  All I can say is that there is certainly an increasing demand for good quality fish!!!


Edited by humbug, 28 November 2016 - 09:51 AM.


#13 Androo

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 09:19 AM

Its great in theory to boycott but when you do that the general public snap them up because they cant get a cross in most stores. Like has happened in this case. I told him id take them all for free of course and i told them they were as feeders because otherwise one day they will be sold again and may be bred back to one of the original breeds thus ruining fish in the hobby.

#14 sandgroper

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 09:54 AM

The biggest problem in my opinion starts with the suppliers dropping the scientific names for made up marketing ones. There is nothing wrong with line breeding, your just selecting the best examples of that species. So why drop it's proper name for a made up marketing name like super red or star light. This just confuses the inexperienced resulting in the loss of confidence in the true identification of a fish. I won't by fish if the seller hasn't got the proper scientific name and even better the location. Then when on selling fry keep the location name also and don't sell true types and location dirt cheap just to compete with the cheap crap ones. People who are truly interested in fish keeping will pay for quality fish that are true to type.



#15 Chris Perth

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 05:45 PM

The biggest problem in my opinion starts with the suppliers dropping the scientific names for made up marketing ones. There is nothing wrong with line breeding, your just selecting the best examples of that species. So why drop it's proper name for a made up marketing name like super red or star light. This just confuses the inexperienced resulting in the loss of confidence in the true identification of a fish. I won't by fish if the seller hasn't got the proper scientific name and even better the location. Then when on selling fry keep the location name also and don't sell true types and location dirt cheap just to compete with the cheap crap ones. People who are truly interested in fish keeping will pay for quality fish that are true to type.


I totally agree, in fact I recall that it was mandated by PCS some years ago that no fish could be bought, sold, auctioned at meetings or on the forum without its scientific name.

#16 Chris Perth

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 09:43 AM

[\quote] There is nothing wrong with line breeding, your just selecting the best examples of that species. will pay for quality fish that are true to type.[/quote]

I was just re-reading this post - and must disagree with the comment about line breeding. As purists l would have thought that maintaining a species as close to its naturally occuring type is paramount, and part of the cichlid keepers ethos. I personally do not agree with 'lemon' bns longfins etc oh and what about flowerhorns, but unfortunately they are now a commercial reality. And just to highlight my point would we accept it, if zoo's were to line breed say an all black or all white panda bear. It would not be right, even though it would have the same latin name.
In addition varients as seen in the rift lakes are generally as a result of environment/location and are naturally occuring.
More food for thought!

Edited by Chris Bell, 02 December 2016 - 09:46 AM.


#17 Hood

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 09:49 AM

I was just re-reading this post - and must disagree with the comment about line breeding. As purists l would have thought that maintaining a species as close to its naturally occuring type is paramount, and part of the cichlid keepers ethos. I personally do not agree with 'lemon' bns longfins etc oh and what about flowerhorns, but unfortunately they are now a commercial reality. And just to highlight my point would we accept it, if zoo's were to line breed say an all black or all white panda bear. It would not be right, even though it would have the same latin name.
In addition varients as seen in the rift lakes are generally as a result of environment/location and are naturally occuring.
More food for thought!


....but we are all line breeding all the time...we're just not using any standardized set of characteristics for our selection. Thus quality issues seen in the hobby.
....even more food for thought. ;)

Edited by Hood, 02 December 2016 - 09:50 AM.


#18 Chris Perth

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 10:05 AM

....but we are all line breeding all the time...we're just not using any standardized set of characteristics for our selection. Thus quality issues seen in the hobby.....even more food for thought. ;)


Yes and No - In nature the strongest, most colourful etc male will attract the best female, they breed fry are the best they can possibly be, if we do this in the aquarium setting (the best possible males and females) this is not line breeding, in my opinion. If however we find a male with say more green pigmentation, and selectively breed to eventually have all green fish that will breed and throw all greens - that is imo line breeding - you have changed a naturally occuring type to something that is not, and if there is on occaision a naturally occuring albino etc it generally does not survive, and would certainly not seek out another albino to create a new variety.
Depends on you interpretation of 'line breeding'

#19 Hood

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 10:08 AM

So your problem is with fish that have been bred to look different from naturally occurring variants... not line breeding/selective breeding, as you can selectively line breed for the most "true" looking fish as per the variant you are keeping. yes?

#20 Chris Perth

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 10:59 AM

Definately!

Definition:
line breeding
noun
the selective breeding of animals for a desired feature by mating them within a closely related line.

In the above google definition the key words are " for a desired feature" i.e. lemons, longfins etc which is what I am referring to.

Another example of line breeding I saw on a Frontosa site were 'black widow' Frontosa which are a pigment variation which were bred back to them selves to produce a constant pigment variation. And damm ugly they are too!

Miriam webster definition:
Definition of linebreeding
: the interbreeding of individuals within a particular line of descent usually to perpetuate desirable characters

There are other definitions but generally concure that it is inbreeding to achieve a desired characteristic.

Your thoughts?




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