21 replies to this topic

[vaggacichlid]

tonight some people came and bought some fry off me.

we were discussing the agressiveness of certain fish and they said that they have a friend who cuts of the outer jaw of the red devils to stop the male from biting and klilling the females, therefore no harm to females. they said it is 'safe' and that it is starting to grow back.

i have never heard of this before, and not too sure if this is right or not... anyone heard oif this or had any experience (not that i am going to try it or anything)

Nathan

[Scat]

Sounds pretty horrible to me 8O 8O

Craig

[vaggacichlid]

yeh thats what i think!

[FishGal]

Hmm sounds like cruelty IMHO.

Why get a fish that is known to be aggressive and then complain when it does something it naturally does? If they didn't want an aggressive fish, they shouldn't have bought a red devil, simple as that IMO. They should NOT disfigure that fish in order to make it behave the way they want it too.

They said it's starting to grow back?? If thats the case then the whole exercise was pointless and the fish suffered for no reason..... :roll:

Lets cut their outer jaw and see how "safe" they think it is :evil:

[Managuense]

Thats shocking. A very cruel practice indeed

[Leevers]

hard to really say? is it because it's not common practice that we find it cruel?

They used to cut the tails off certain dogs. IMO thats cruel, but there was a reason they were cut off.
We chop the nuts off our dogs to make them infertile, is this cruel?

I guess what im trying to say is, that at the time of the practise being done and at first thought it may sound or be cruel, but in the long run it may be the safer and better option for both the fish and the fish owner?

After all, i doubt the fish dwells on the loss of his jaw as opposed to a dog dwelling to the loss of his beloved nicnacs

Atleast the fish grows his back.


IMO - I cannot comment on whether it is cruel or uncruel as i have not heard of this being done before, and i find many other things to be done cruel and done for no reason.
Atleast the cutting off of the jaw is justified within reason.

Regards
Chris

[Den]

If you want to ensure a male red devil never kills a female I recommend you cut of the entire head from the gills forward and not just the lips.

Personally I think there are better ways to manage these fish than mutillation, for example using dividers or even better a really, really big tank where the female can escape a males territorry.

Cheers
Den

[FishGal]

but in the long run it may be the safer and better option for both the fish and the fish owner?

How is it the safer and better option for either the fish or the owner? You get a red devil, you should know it's a nasty fish, if you don't, perhaps a bit of research should be done prior to purchase :?

It's definitely not a safer or better option for the fish, unless they give it some kind of sedative while they are doing the "procedure", the fish is going to feel some kind of pain and discomfort, its a living thing, its going to feel pain. And it grows back so whats the point? It's a futile exercise IMO. You don't want the male RD to attack the female, don't put two together. In the wild aggression during spawning happens, why should we interfere with that just because they are in a glass box? If you can't handle seeing fish doing what they do naturally, don't house a breeding pair. The fish shouldn't be maimed because it's doing what comes naturally to it.

I'm sorry but this practice is cruel and in no way justified IMO.

[CCA001]

Man that would hurt like hell. If thst person told me that there is NO way i would be seeling ANY of my fish to them NO matter how much or what they were buying.

THAT IS CRUELTY a fish has feelings aswell.

What goes around comes around.

[cobby]

MMMM that struck a nerve 8O

Have to agree with leevers To some extent

IE any body have a dog with a docked tail 8O 8O

As for cutting The luggage of that would not be pleasant :oops: :oops:

Bit like peeling Onions if you know what i mean 8O 8O

Or we Have Circumcision Don't want to work in the desert with AL that sand around 8O 8O 8O 8O

[Noddy65]

Bad form all round really.
Tail docking and ear clipping is now illegal in WA for animal welfare issues.

Castraton is not painful if done properly (despite what most human males think) and believe me, dogs dont miss their testicles, in fact they live a longer healthier life without them.

Ouch...jaw cutting would be painful...I cant imagine the back yarders doing it under anaesthetic...just seems like a quick solution to bad fish managment to me.

Mike

[cobby]

Hey i agrre Mike

[Leevers]

Exactly Mike. If FishGal were to take my comments as constructive critisism rather than taking sides, maybe she'd notice that i did not comment on whether i thought it was cruel or not. Rather i made mention of a few other practises of which i find to be cruel.

I will not dwell or lose sleep over the first post as we all enjoy going fishing. A hook going through a jaw of a fish hurts. Most of the time the fish will heal and live a healthy life. Yet we do it carelessly for the enjoyment of it?

How can we justify sticking hooks through the jaws of fish and justify it based on how happy it makes us at the time? do we feel a sense of achievement? Sure we can eat them, but 90% of catches are too small and thrown back in the water without further thought.

I think it's a load of bollocks how people can sit here and crisitise the way people do things in life when none of us are any better if we were to relate it to other life obsessions and habits.

For example - In Germany there happens to be a thriving 'Ant' keeping hobby. Some ants of which sell and trade for prices your rarest fish go for.
Even the rather large Australian bullant fetches prices of up to $550 as they are classed as Exotic Ants worldwide.
Yet none of us lose sleep or hesitate to squash these ants. Why isn't that cruel?
Those 'Ant Keepers' in Germany think thats cruel, yet we pass it as common practise to squash or kill ants as we find them irritating.

So before anyone jumps the band wagon and calls this cruelty of which it may very well be! and I'm not debating the cruelty of this practise. Look in the mirror and look at some of the other things in life you do an pass it as a daily thing. The better part of us find this cruel as 'Fish keeping is a hobby' of ours.

Like I said, I was not taking sides. I was merely trying to relate some of our every day habits to a practise someone at the time thought was the right thing to do. Whether they thought hard enough at the time or not.

Regards
Chris

[Terry]

My dog bit me today when we were playing, if I have his lower jaw removed it wont hurt next time
Cheers Terry

[tywonreef]

yeah mate dont go there but tx 4 asking the forum

[FishGal]

If FishGal were to take my comments as constructive critisism rather than taking sides, maybe she'd notice that i did not comment on whether i thought it was cruel or not. Rather i made mention of a few other practises of which i find to be cruel.

LOL I wasn't taking sides, I was stating that I thought it was cruel. Did I say that you said it was cruel or not?? I don't believe I did :wink: it did sound like you were trying to justify the act though. Just because I didn't agree with what you were saying doesn't mean the discussion has to get personal, I thought those days on this forum were over with, maybe not :roll: and whats wrong with me taking sides? IMO you either think this practice is cruel or you don't, I'm not the only one to say that I thought it was cruel.

What I DID question was how it can be a safer and better option for the fish or the owner.

I agree there are things that every person does during the course of a day that another would find cruel but to knowingly cut a fish jaw to prevent what it does naturally from occurring?

Anyways enough said, I think the general consensus is that it's cruel and really bad fish management. :roll:

[/b]

[Leevers]

I ment i wasn't taking sides, not you.
I didn't try justify it if thats the way it came across. However, i did try make a couple of people think about it a little more before ruling it out as cruel. Because lets face it; there is so many things we do from day to day that some would regard as cruel, yet we all find ways of justifying out actions dont we?

Ahh well, The general idea is that it's cruel, and i would agree to some extent, but can also see and understand why it was done regardless of how little thought was put into it.

Fishgal, i didn't mean to express myself in such a way that i was attaciking your comments as such. It just came across as if you were read my comments in such a way that i was trying to justify the means of this practise which i was not. All good though

Regards
Chris

[brev]

Heres a question to fuel the debate..
Can fish feel pain? I heard they dont have a central nervous system or something. Not that im taking sides just curious!!

[NicholasC]

Yeah fish feel pain! If they didn't have a nervous system then they coudn't feel

I sometimes bumb into my barramundi when i am cleaning the tank and he feels it and swims away. Also fish bump into the glass with out the nervous system they would not feel and be constantly smacking the glass

Nic

[monobono]

Its CRUEL! Tell this dude to stick to guppies if he doesn't want a fish that is very well known for being agressive (hell, the name "red devil" speaks for itself.



FYI, I have Red Devils (yes, Males and Females) 25cm long each, all in the one tank together, not a ripped fin or scale missing ......... and yep, they all have jaws!



Let me guess, this guy also cuts the tails off his fish to stop them from swimming to fast? :roll:



Honestly, some people just should not have fish at all.