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Advice on Panaque's and Pleco's


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#21 00 MooRRii 00

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 03:55 PM

Good info shaun. :good



#22 crashfragment

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 04:07 PM

thanks mate:good
-shaun

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Catch me when you can Mishter Lusk
(Jack The Ripper, 1888)

Taken from the only letter believed to be written by Jack The Ripper. It arrived on 16th October addressed to George Lusk, head of the Whitechapel Vigilance commitee. It came with a three inch square cardboard box containing half a human kidney. the letter was marked: From hell...



#23 Adam Maskew

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 06:05 PM

Shaun,

Just thought I'd correct your mis representation of what happens with hormone injections. It is not the injection, nor the injection of a particular hormone or the injection of a high dose that will kill a fish.

Injecting fish is very safe if done correctly. Even novices can inject intramuscularly fairly safely.

The wrong hormone? well the hormone will be used if it can be or removed through the waste collecting system of the fish. Again not much hope of killing the fish.

Too much hormone? Not a problem. The fish will metabolise the excess and excrete it with no problems.


So were are the problems that can lead to fish death use hormone injections?

One of the major contributors is the handling of the fish. Is it easy to catch the fish? do you disrupt the slime coat of the fish? do you anethitise the fish? are you rough in handling the fish? how do you revive the fish? All these can stress fish leading to fish health problems.

One of the major problem comes if the fish can not release the matured oocytes and they degenerate in the ovaries of the fish. You lose fish this way. The other way is if you try to strip the fish. If this is not done well you can lose fish.

Hope that clarifies the issue.

Adam

Edited by: Adam Maskew at: 8/29/03 11:22 am


#24 crashfragment

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 11:29 PM

i wasn't mis-representing anything because as i said...i don't know much about hormone injecting. and by much i mean: zero. ok?
i'd prefer to be knowledgable about BREEDING fish. who will be recognised as the first person to breed a species in captivity...the person that spent years getting the right conditions, mature fish, ratio of males to females so they'd breed naturally...or the person that stuck a needle in them?
i know which i'd be proud of.:neener
-shaun

------------------
signed
Catch me when you can Mishter Lusk
(Jack The Ripper, 1888)

Taken from the only letter believed to be written by Jack The Ripper. It arrived on 16th October addressed to George Lusk, head of the Whitechapel Vigilance commitee. It came with a three inch square cardboard box containing half a human kidney. the letter was marked: From hell...



#25 Adam Maskew

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 11:44 PM

Shaun,

I obviously ruffled your feathers a little. I apologise.

The use of hormones is one part of a breeders arsenal. Such a breeder is not necessaryily a hobbyist.

I'm not sure whether it should be part of a hobbyists arsenal. The hobby is about keeping fish and maintaining an environment you are happy with. If breeding fish in a representation of their biotype is your thing, so be it.

So enjoy your hobby. Understanding the endocrine pathways and exogenous influences may be your thing or it may not.

Again I apologise. Enjoy your fish. :mb

Adam



#26 crashfragment

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 04:05 AM

you have no need to apologise mate:)
reading back i shouldn't have jumped in so stongly in my last post, so i also apologise. i don't really take the moral high ground to such an extreme. honestly hormone injecting fascinates me and i hope someone in australia does do it. theres quite a few catfish sp. (especially loricariidae) i'd love to see drop in price.
i would actually like to learn some general stuff about hormone injecting, could be VERY handy one day.:mb
once again i didn't mean to sound so...prententious (i almost typed "stupid" ;) ) in the above post. my apologies:cheers
-shaun

------------------
signed
Catch me when you can Mishter Lusk
(Jack The Ripper, 1888)

Taken from the only letter believed to be written by Jack The Ripper. It arrived on 16th October addressed to George Lusk, head of the Whitechapel Vigilance commitee. It came with a three inch square cardboard box containing half a human kidney. the letter was marked: From hell...



#27 Guest_Alan Caboolture_*

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 02:41 AM

Hey Shaun,

Some, but not all of your arguments are valid. Sexual dimorphism is evident in fin shape in countless species where the fins concerned have nothing to do with reproduction. Eg. dorsal fins in tetras, cichlids, rainbows, gouramies, killies, and the list goes on and on!

As this thread is about panagues, lets stick to where we can see a difference between sexes. Keep in mind thought that this is NOT typical of all species. They all have thier little quirks and what goes for one species may not be valid for another.

As with almost all Sth American catfish, cories to pleco's, they are best viewed from above.

Males and females have a totally different head and body shape. To see this takes a bit of doing / experience You kind of have to ignore all the other bits and just see the underlying feature. Like sexing angle fish, blank out the fins, tail, etc. and just look at the body outline!

In most, but not all, males have longer, more robust primary pectoral rays.

In some, not all, the males have longer more pointed pelvics.

Usually males are larger than females.

Finally, if the fish are mature and ripe the anal aperture (cloaca) is totally different.

This is kind of like trying to tell people how to sex day old chickens ! The experienced can do it 99 times out of 100 but then some :\ !

Finally, the fish under discussion here were described as a "pair", not a proven pair, spawning pair, guaranteed pair but a "?" pair. The decision to buy is totally up to the guy with the money. There are plenty of people out there with the cash and don't even care what sex the fish are as they have no intention of breeding ! just owning a $K fish.

:cheers

Alan.

PS. Adam, not all the members here are 'right up there with you' some of us do understand that without artificial enducement in breeding establisments most of us would never see the range of species that are available to us. Nor would they be able to eat good 'fish & chips' if it weren't for a needle here and there.

Edited by: Alan Caboolture at: 8/31/03 7:01 pm


#28 00 MooRRii 00

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 04:17 AM

:bs When 2 fish are labeled as a pair 9 times outta 10 people in general assume that they are atleast male and female. How many fish do you sell as a pair? and end up selling some poor bastard 2 males? :neener

Edited by: 00 MooRRii 00 at: 8/31/03 8:18 pm


#29 crashfragment

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 05:01 AM

every ichthyologist i have spoken to about panaques said: turn them over (only works when they're adult), and look at the genital papilla. also on some panaque species the males have elongated opercular odontodes, but as i discovered yesterday this doesn't apply to p. nigrolineatus, more confined to certain larger panaque species (which are currently classified as: panaque sp.)
yes, some fish do have male/female specific fin structures...but why would the ADIPOSE fin on a loricariidae species be different for males and females? that was my point.
"adipose" basically means "tissues that store fat", and in nearly all catfish this is the case. its just a small fleshy appendage, perhaps a remnant from catfish's primative ancestors...it doesn't appear to have any function. why, oh why would this be how to tell male panaques from female panaques? its silly.
and like i said...in CATFISH the best fins to look at would be: the pelvic and anal fins.
-shaun

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Official apology: to those who don't like cartoon boobs...do you like kids getting knocked out?

Edited by: crashfragment  at: 8/31/03 9:05 pm


#30 Ash

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 05:10 AM

that is true alan, there are some really rich people out there who could not care less about breeding, but about keeping and owning nice fish (and very expensive ones) and if someone was gonna buy $3500 fish then im quite sure they would ask us if it is a breeding pair/definite pair, etc.

Btw crashfragment, both pics are entertaining



#31 crashfragment

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 05:56 AM

hahahaha thanks ash:good
i had a few complaints about the bouncing cartoon boobs. so i thought i replace them with something "less" offensive:b
-shaun

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Official apology: to those who don't like cartoon boobs...do you like kids getting knocked out?



#32 tangy1

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 01:54 AM

Hi,
sorry ash but I stand by my comment as I have seen proof of this in south east asia. As I stated it is only in panaques that this way of sexing is possible and only in adults.
cheers kelvin.



#33 Chipimbi

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 08:09 PM

Ooooops Please ignore :wall

Edited by: Chipimbi at: 9/2/03 12:11 pm


#34 Beagly

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 08:20 PM

G'day Adam

I was wondering if you would email regarding the use of hormones.

CYA Beagly
Katoomba, Blue Mountains
Beagly@mail.com

Edited by: Beagly at: 9/2/03 12:23 pm


#35 tangy1

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 01:08 AM

My post above was to crashfragment not ash sorry.






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