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Loricariidae availability.


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#1 crashfragment

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 06:24 AM

I thought I might start a thread going of all the Loricariidae Sp. I have seen in Australia. I'd like to invite other people to list what they've seen (or own), so we can get a better idea of what we have in this country.
Here goes:

Acanthicus adonis
Ancistrus sp. cf. hoplogenys (Probably going to be re-classified as Ancistrus dolichopterus)
Ancistrus ranuculus
Ancistrus sp. (L110, L157 Incorrectly referred to as Ancistrus leucostictus in Australia)
Ancistrus sp. (L144)
Ancistrus triradiatus (Common Bristlenose. Incorrectly referred to as Ancistrus dolichopterus and Ancistrus temmincki in Australia)
Baryancistrus sp. (L018, L081, L085, L177)
Farlowella vittata
Glyptoperichthys gibbiceps
Glyptoperichthys joselimaianus
Hemiloricaria sp. (L010a)
Hypancistrus sp. (L260)
Hypancistrus zebra
Liposarcus ambrosettii
Liposarcus pardalis
Liposarcus sp.
Oligancistrus sp. (L020)
Otocinclus vittatus
Panaqulos albomaculatus
Panaqulos maccus
Panaqulos sp. (L204)
Panaque nigrolineatus (Several colour/pattern forms around)
Pecoltia sp. (L134)
Pecoltia vittata
Pseudoacanthicus leopardus
Scobinancistrus aureatus
Sturisoma festivum
Sturisoma panamese
Zonancistrus pulcher

This is all the species I have laid eyes on around the place, I have heard of others...but in the interests of an accurate list I won't list stuff I haven't seen.
Thanks.
-Shaun

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#2 BT

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 07:51 PM

Heya

I will add my list shortly. Just thought I would ask how you can be certain that the "common" bristlenose that we have in Australia is Ancistrus triradiatus?

I doubt that the common bristlenose CAN be described as any type of Loricariidae other than Ancistrus sp. x.

I doubt if there is record of Triradiatus being one of the first BN's here in Australia but the Bristlenose imported has certainly been bastardised by callous breeding, either through speciation or by hybridisation with other Ancistrus BN's coming into the country.

My guess is certainly temminckii or dolichopterus when looking at fish in stores in Perth. The colour of the fish has been muted in both examples (by the above scenarios), but the formation of the bristles occur as per the descriptions of the fish. Triradiatus is distinguishable above and beyond any colour change, atleast as distinguishable as ranunculus.

When was the last time anyone heard of Bristlenoses being imported into Australia? It has been a long time since a decent import of fresh Ancistrus sp. genes.

This hasnt happened only in Australia. Imagine what has happened to the genus if hybrids from other countries have been translocated to Australia. Unfortunately, hybrid BN's show no sign of sterility like other fish.

Dolichopterus is its own fish, why would they reclassify hoplogenys?

Regards

BT (my list to follow)

Edited by: BT at: 1/9/04 12:48 pm


#3 BT

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 09:58 PM

Heya

Possibly a bad idea to name those that you keep, I have heard that fisheries dept. keep a close eye on what people admit to, breed, sell etc...

Fish I have 'seen' that belong to Loricariidae, whilst in Australia include;

Ancistomus snethlageae
Ancistrinae sp. (L128) / (L200)
Ancistrus
- brevifilis
- claro
- hoplogenys
- temminckii
Baryancistrus sp. (L081) / (177) Gold Nugget Pleco
Hemiloricaria sp. (L010a) Red Lizard/Whiptail Catfish
Glyptoperichthys gibbiceps (variation L083c) / (L164) - Sailfin
Glyptoperichthys punctatus - Trinidad
Hypancistrus inspector (L201)
Hypancistrus zebra and variations
Hypancistrus sp (L270) - Chocolate zebra
Panaque maccus - Clown pleco
Panaque nigrolineatus
Panaqua sp. (L204) - Flash Panaque
Panaque sp. (L002) / (L271) - Gold Stripe Panaque
Peckoltia vittata (L015) - Tiger Pleco
Peckoltia angelicus (L005)
Peckoltia oligospila (L006) - Brown Dot
Peckoltia pulcher - Another Tiger Pleco
Peckoltia sp.(02) - Flash / Red Zebra Peckoltia
Pseudacanthicus leopardus
Pseudacanthicus spinosus - (L096) / (L160) - Spiny M. Pleco
Pseudancistrus barbatus
Sturisoma aureum
Sturisoma barbatum
Sturisoma nigrirostrum
Sturisoma panamense - Royal Twig Catfish

Many others I have seen also, such as Hypostomus et al and variations to the above.

Many others I would like to 'see', just a matter of time, and quality. I have kept quite a lot of others in the lori genera, along side my father and uncle whilst in different countries throughout the world.

Regards

BT






#4 akroyd

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 11:46 PM

Michael (Aurea23) has been posting a spawn chronology of L127? in the Planetcatfish loricariidae forum.

Also recently in Austrlia are albino gibbiceps, and I think they're here to stay.



#5 tangy1

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 12:20 AM

Plecos that I have "seen" in australis are as follows :-
L14
L20
L27
L91
L191
L204
L01
SAILFIN GIBBIES
PEPPERMINTS
community.webshots.com/album/98094934pDEYgV
TANGY;)

Edited by: tangy1 at: 1/9/04 4:20 pm


#6 Tammy Brisbane

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 12:30 AM

Sturisomatichthys leightoni (dwarf royal whiptail)
Although its been a while since I've seen these guys.

Farlowella acus (twig catfish)

I believe there's also a number of other whiptails, but knowing exactly what species they are is another thing.

Tammy



#7 crashfragment

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 01:41 AM

BT,
I'll try to answer some of your questions...
Firstly I have a Loricariidae expert in the U.S. I correspond with. I have sent him many different pictures of many different common Ancistrus from all over Australia, only to have them identified time and time again as Ancistrus triradiatus. The reasons behind this are simple.
A. temminckii is currently considered to be a juniour synonym of A. triradiatus (I'll tell you about A. dolichopterus in a sec). So what used to be called A. temminckii, now goes by the correct name Ancistrus triradiatus.

Now about this:
Quote:
Dolichopterus is its own fish, why would they reclassify hoplogenys?


Most of the trouble with A. hoplogenys is down to the incorrectly labelled photos in the first Aqualog. They don't match DATZ, the type localities are wrong and so on.
All i can say is that Ancistrus hoplogenys is in the process of being re-classified as Ancistrus dolichopterus to bring it in line with the fish classified at the type locality. I am told the fish that should be called Ancistrus hoplogenys is a black and white fish, with rusty red spots on every leading fin ray. It was labelled as L059, L059a, L059b but the photos were incorrect. Theres still a fair bit of confusion where this fish is concerned...but A. dolichopterus is its current status.
Thats all I can say.
-Shaun

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#8 BT

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 03:41 AM

Heya

Shaun, this is interesting to me, because I have an interest in temminckii. Now I have heard of temminckii being refered to (incorrectly I would have thought) as Ancistrus dolichopterus in synonym lists on the web. I would never have thought of temminckii as being the juvinile to A. triradiatus. I have never kept triradiatus (well...) but have been keeping a fairly clean line of temminckii (so I thought...) for a while.

The juviniles appear to be different in each set of photo's I have ever seen (both alive and preserved) and while I have only ever seen triradiatus in the States, the temminckii that I keep show a far different colouration.

Temminckii and triradiatus also show a different growth pattern to their bristles. Typical triradiatus also shows a different growth to the "common" bristlenoses we see around here.

However, the fish I have grow to a maximum size of about 5" and I have read that triradiatus shares a similar size. The 'common' bristlenose grows to this size also...

Interesting.

Same with the reclassification of dolichopterus and hoplogenys. I am looking into this at the moment. Interesting as well. I wonder how long it will take for lfs to catch on.

However, I have seen fish recently being called hoplogenys which a so far from hoplogenys as we have all come to know and love, that it wouldnt suprise me. These fish actually look like dolichopterus. Dolichopterus as I understand the fish is void of the white markings to the dorsal and caudal fins.

The fish you say should be hoplogenys actually sounds like L043 A.leucosticta.

As I say, interesting. But still with all the errors in Aqualog et al, its hardly suprising. LDA and L numbers were probably a bad idea to start with, and the fish, while I would rather them alive should have been described taxonomically in the first place.

Thanks for the food for thought / research!
Kindest Regards

BT



#9 crashfragment

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 07:13 AM

Hey BT,
Must say I'm delighted to meet someone as interested as I am in correctly identifying the Loricariidae in Australia!

A. triradiatus...well...this one is a bit strange to me...All the photos I've ever seen of A. triradiatus look nothing like the "common" Bristlenose we have here in Australia. But I'm told that the A. temminickii pic in Aqualog (which I do recognise) should be corectly labelled as A. triradiatus!
As far as fin rays, bristles and general shape goes, A. triradiatus matches "our" Bristlenose, but the colour looks all wrong to me...it could be because I've only ever seen pics of wild caught A. triradiatus? Not sure...

A. hoplogenys has always been a BIG annoyance to me. I seriously think there are at least two species being sold under the name Peppermint catfish.
The taxononmy of the species is all mixed up at the moment...
The first Loricariidae Aqualog that came out was FULL of mistakes concerning Ancistrus sp. ( and plenty of others!). There was a-lot of confusion surrounding the "black catfish, with fine white dots". Most of it cmes down to lack of communication between scientists/taxonomists. Things like identical fish from different localities being classified as seperate species or different Lnos. Geographic variants being classified as seperate species. Type localities and original descriptions getting mixed up...The list goes on and on. All I keep getting told is the ones we have in Australia are A. sp. cf. hoplogenys...soon to be re-classified as A. dolichopterus. The re-classification is basically down to the type locality and original description matching A. dolichopterus and not A. hoplogenys. Its maddening...I have a-bit of an obsessive-compulsive personality and not knowing drives me crazy, I research into this stuff ALL the time, still can't work out what the fish in my tanks really are!:rollin hahaha. Still...They're fantastic looking fish, really interesting to keep, so its not all bad!

Let me know what your research comes up with. I'm always after a new tidbit of Ancistrus info:good
Thanks.
-Shaun

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#10 wazzablunt

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 08:43 PM

Why do the import laws not allow us to import Loricariidae from Singapore or other countries? Do you think this law will ever be lifted becuase the availability and price of Plecos over there is much more affordable. On the plecofanatics forum i have seen fish such as L046 as low as $90 Singapore dollars!

wazza
wwblunt@tpg.com.au
Wahroonga, NSW



#11 Brett4Perth

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 11:09 PM

Hi Shaun and BT,

Are there any sites on the internet that provide the taxonomic discriptions of fish.

Very hard to work out which species is which just based on a few photos or color descriptions.:\

Brett



#12 BT

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 11:31 AM

Heya

Shaun, allow me first to return the sentiments, it is interesting and a worthy subject to be enthralled by. Whilst we get the soggy end of the stick when it comes to the obtainability of these fish, likely as not what you end up with is not at all what is in the minds eye, when the money is on the table. Half the allure of catfish for me is the difficulty in correct identification, and the unknown element that comes with this.

I agree with your premise concerning Peppermints. As you say, two distinct looking fish are being sold. I am looking for the 'snowflake' at the moment, and while lfs throughout the Perth metro have similar fish, they just dont cut the butter...

Wild caught fish and their first or second aquarium progeny always look different, I have found, to the fish that have been kept and bred for generations. Lack of new genes leads to speciation (and deformity / abnormalities) and problems. So, loss of colour, size, abnormal proportions etc occur.

A. triradiatus (wild) has a very distinctive growth down the nose and across the jaw (like an inverted T), or in a circle, where as the bristlenose that we call the 'common' grow bristles over the entirety of their 'face'. This may well be a matter of speciation...

Previous work on the classification and description of catfish is lacking, and while I doubt the work will ever be scratched and started anew it seems that this could likely be the best course of action.

However, some fish from the Aqualog et al are likely lost from habitat / ecological damage occuring in S. America and Africa at any rate.

I will keep you posted on what I manage to dig up!

Good question wazza! Hard to answer with out wading through bucket loads of beaurocratic nonsense. In W.A at least I suspect it is due to protecting Water Ways from released (Escapees!! bah politicians are fools.) pets (as in NT.) However, I think it has more to do with keeping the trout free of competition...

(Actually try this...)
pub79.ezboard.com/fperthc...1140.topic

I have seen shops throughout S.E Asia that sell many varieties of catfish that only a book could compete against.

Brett, there are a few sites online that have a little information regarding taxonomy and phylogeny, but are very specific to certain genera or with problem fish.

Though much of the information is likely to be outdated I have found most in university library's, and while I have never looked in WA uni's I would imagine that this would hold. I will check out Murdoch library when I am there next.

I have a few books on catfish, though most give reference to the taxonomist that described the fish only.

Short of getting a degree and dedicating your life to the field, there are no short order do it yourself guides or anything... well, none that I have come across anyway!

It seems that Lori's have been left behind when it comes to clear cut definitions of fish, though we cant really complain. When it comes down to it the Lori's are the most documented catfish (perhaps next to bagridae...)

Hmm another fascinating family of cats...

Regards

BT

Edited by: BT at: 1/11/04 4:08 am


#13 wysiwyg

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 06:20 PM

Hi BT and Shaun,
I have two totally different type BN. First group are composed of dark grey/black with white/light grey markings. The second group are brownish with tan/orange markings. The brown ones do not change their colour with environment because I've changed them around on different substrates to see. Are they two different species? I've kept them spearate so that they don't breed. I've seen a lot around that appear to be an intermediate composite of the the two, but these are clearly different. Even the spot/patches are different size and shape between the two.


wys



#14 wazzablunt

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 06:46 PM

could we see some pics please?

wazza
wwblunt@tpg.com.au
Wahroonga, NSW



#15 mrseby

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 07:06 PM

Hi Guys

IMO

I have noticed that we may have at least 2 ..So called (norm bristle nose cats) in Australia and possibly more !!

First one seems to be a larger fish with the males showing bigger and more pronounced bristles these fish have also a darker body and seem to grown faster and also breed easier.. Spots also tend to be smaller in these fish and the males bristles tend to be more of a complete growth surrounding the frontal face of this fish
These also trended to show rounder type patches
       
The second lot tend to grow slower and are a clearer colour and the trend 4 the males is to have less pronounced bristles and in more of a T type growth pattern ..They also don’t grow as large and not as easy to breed
These guys body colour trended to a more light brown and the spots were a blurry type not a spot !!

These are just some very simplistic description of these fish but are very obvious when u compare the two side by side …!!!

I have kept and breed both of the above for periods in excess of 5 years and have always kept them separate !! And they do breed true to form.
The young are replicas of the parents !!!! In both cases

It was only by accident that I managed to keep both these groups separate as I obtained them as breeding colonies from 2 very different places.
But both times they were purchased as normal bristle nose cats?

I will try to look back on my photo album for pics as unfortunately due to my travel commitments I no longer have the colonies.

I can say that without doubt we have 2 very different so called NORM Bristle nose !!! maybe more ?

Hope this helps a little

Be good :good




#16 wysiwyg

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 12:54 AM

Yep, that's exactly like my two groups Mrseby.


wys



#17 crashfragment

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 02:43 AM

Very interesting guys...
I suspected there were at least 2 "common" Bristlenose species here a looong time ago, but I lost interest when I had enough money to buy some rarer stuff. And then I started looking into Ancistrus sp. cf. hoplogenys "taxonomics" and sort of forgot about the BNs. I sort of dismissed the idea of 2 species down to colour variants of A. triradiatus. You guys might have just rekindled that interest:good
I'll see what I can find:mb
-Shaun

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#18 Guest_Alan Caboolture_*

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 06:00 PM

For anybody who has been with Auscat since it's inception on the old site many years ago this an old story, but the line of "common Bristle nose" I have has been maintained since 1968 without any "new blood". My original bristles were offspring from imported fish that came in as A temminkii.

I made an attempt years ago to introduce "new blood" with a group of "common bristle nose" that I got from Victoria and spent two years attempting to get these fish to cross with mine and not a single egg produced. Refer to this previous thread pub79.ezboard.com/fperthc...=251.topic

Thus, to date, the bristles I have here are as 'pure' as the fish imported in the mid sixties.

Alan.

Edited by: Alan Caboolture at: 1/12/04 10:05 am


#19 wysiwyg

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 08:23 PM

Hi Alan,
Due to the fact that you were unable to produce any viable fry from the union of the two groups, could we interpret this to mean that they are two seperate species?


wys



#20 q2w3e4

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 08:36 PM

hi all there i'm troy
i have a mate how is trying to get a hold of this Pseudacanthicus spinosus he want's to know how much they cost as just one and how much as a breeding pair so he can put one in each of his 91 tank's also how much would the shipping cost to bundaberg QLD if you can help us out it would be great thank you


-->:p jas.smith@optusnet.com.au"> pjas.smith@optusnet.com.au






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