119 replies to this topic

[sydad]

Or Peroxide, as an added bonus it will add air to the tank water

Umm, no it won't, but it will add oxygen.

Syd.

[fishking123]

so this albino peppermint is like a normal albino??

[werdna]

Oh dont get technical Syd, you know what I meant!

[Mattymak]

Any updates?

[fishking123]

whats the chance of cross breeding a peppy with albino or orange spot?

[Scales]

Zero chance

[fishking123]

nah i bet they can? what stops them?? my peachface bird humps my dog!

[Neakit]

>_> im not sure that thinking about actively trying to cross catfish is a good thing.

[Peckoltia]

Neakit - What are you the mind control police? Telling people what they should be thinking.

Fishking just asked a simple question as to why it isn't possible? A valid question in my opinion. He never said he was trying to do it, or was going to do it. Simply wanted to know why it is apparently not possible? Don't ask questions you don't learn, even if you have to do so under fear of the hybrid lynch mob coming down on ya'.

I am not sure I can answer the question of why it is 'common knowledge' that the two will not hybridise. I am no L number expert. But the two species appear to have very similar spawning methods and are closely related. Is it because catfish seem to be more discriminate when it comes to selecting spawning partners than most cichlids?

Can someone give an answer to this.

*edit-spelling

Edited by Peckoltia, 11 January 2013 - 04:38 PM.

[Anka]

My knowledge of genetics is very limited but I believe that even if an albino bn would spawn with a peppy then none of the young would be albino.

X = albino gene
Y = no albino gene

Xx x yy would give xy x 4

You would then need xy to breed with xy

Xy x xy will give xx, 2 x xy and a yy.

You will need an xx for it to be albino - I think.

Even then the second generation would probably be Lutino and now albino. A 3rd generation would yield albinos.

[Peckoltia]

Genetics are not that simple.

I'm not talking an albino bn and a pep specifically, rather any 2 bn species.

[fishking123]

Neakit - What are you the mind control police? Telling people what they should be thinking.

Fishking just asked a simple question as to why it isn't possible? A valid question in my opinion. He never said he was trying to do it, or was going to do it. Simply wanted to know why it is apparently not possible? Don't ask questions you don't learn, even if you have to do so under fear of the hybrid lynch mob coming down on ya'.

I am not sure I can answer the question of why it is 'common knowledge' that the two will not hybridise. I am no L number expert. But the two species appear to have very similar spawning methods and are closely related. Is it because catfish seem to be more discriminate when it comes to selecting spawning partners than most cichlids?

Can someone give an answer to this.

*edit-spelling

thanks mate

[bigjohnnofish]

whats the chance of cross breeding a peppy with albino or orange spot?

easy way of explaining it is in terms of snapper and dhufish

both are fish. both are generally residential fish , both are reef fish . but they wont cross breed as they are slightly different species...

back to ancistrus catfish... common bristlenose and albino,marble and longfinned varieties all came from the one fish species.. they were line bred and when a genetic mutation occurred it was further line bred so all of these b/n will cross breed again as they are originally the same fish...

peppermints are ancistrus but slightly different species hence they wont cross breed with common,albino or marble b/n

this also applies to orange spot b/n... wont breed with any of the above....

it is believed sometime in history of fish keeping an orange spot b/n crossed with a peppermint b/n... although i havent seen any substancial proof...

only way you are going to get albino pepps is if they do it themselves....

* quick quiz question for the genetic scholars.... cross a marble b/n with an albino b/n... and you get approx 100 fry (as i did) please tell me what the fry were.... in terms of common,marble,albino ???

[Peckoltia]

Thanks for the reply Johnno.

I don't think that the analogy your offered with Dhu fish and Pink Snapper rings true for me. Dhu fish and Pink snapper are two species that are not closely related. They have two different methods of spawning, it is my understanding that Dhu fish form bonded pairs and spawn as such, pink snapper aggregate in large spawning groups. It is no wonder to me that the two do not hybridize. Especially in a natural setting.

Back to bristlenose. I hate to nit pick, as you are the resident L number expert, no question. I get the long fin, marble, albino etc, they are all the same species, so breeding them against each other isn't creating hybrids.

My original point was that cichlids will readily hybridize with different species; most commonly closely related species of the same genus (and subsequently of similar appearance). Eg: Nimbochromis livingstonii with Nimbochromis venusts. Although cichlids will even hybridize with species outside their own genus. To say that the reason Peppies and Common BN don't hybridize because they are different albeit closely related species because they are exactly that, different species, doesn't really explain it for me.

Is it possible that, their is just far less chance as far less people keep multiple Ancistrus species in the same tank in comparison to mixed cichlid tanks?

Is it possible that some are hybridizing, and we just don't know it. Eg: a Peppy X Orange Spot come out looking more or less like a peppy. The peppermint gene that depicts phenotypes is more dominant than the OS?

That's enough from me for now, I'm sure my questions are clear as mud...

PS - Just about to pack the boat with fishing gear... hopefully hybridize a Dhuey and a Pinky on my dinner plate tonight!

Cheers,

Alex

[bigjohnnofish]

if you know your dhufish they dont bond for life in pairs.... the fish is male until it hits approx 2.5 years of age then it changes sex and becomes female.... this information comes from commercial fishermen from jurien bay who used to catch them in the crayfish off season to make ends meet..... and after a bit of research i found this to be spot on.....

back to cichlids with hybridization - im no expert at all but it seems they are a lot closer related then we think... different species of fish with different genetic makeup will never hybridize...
but to me all malawis could hybridize all coming from the same lake that they have been in for many many years... prob all original evolved from the same fish...
do tanginykins cross with malawis ? and maybe throw in americans also... ????
an example being flowerhorns - all derived from american cichlids not africans... someone correct me if im wrong

it is accepted in the catfish hobby that pepps dont cross breed with commons/albinos/marbles..... believe me when i say plenty of people have tried... in an attempt to get something different that they can then sell for top $$$$.....
to make things even more muddy for you there are ancistrus super red b/n... also is a green variation and a blue variation... not in our country yet... someone needs to do some more line breeding and get some favourable colour mutations happening....

hope that helps a bit more to get you up outa the mud

[Peckoltia]

Sorry to go off track, I have never heard of dhu fish changing sex? Can you show me some literature that states this? I was talking with a mate about dhu's tonight, apparently they spawn in pairs and also in small aggregations, nothing like the big snapper aggregations though. I also never said they bonded for life. Just that they form pairs.

http://www.fish.wa.g...es/default.aspx

I can't find reference to sex change in dhu fish anywhere?

Edited by Peckoltia, 13 January 2013 - 01:04 AM.

[fishking123]

if you know your dhufish they dont bond for life in pairs.... the fish is male until it hits approx 2.5 years of age then it changes sex and becomes female.... this information comes from commercial fishermen from jurien bay who used to catch them in the crayfish off season to make ends meet..... and after a bit of research i found this to be spot on.....

back to cichlids with hybridization - im no expert at all but it seems they are a lot closer related then we think... different species of fish with different genetic makeup will never hybridize...
but to me all malawis could hybridize all coming from the same lake that they have been in for many many years... prob all original evolved from the same fish...
do tanginykins cross with malawis ? and maybe throw in americans also... ????
an example being flowerhorns - all derived from american cichlids not africans... someone correct me if im wrong

it is accepted in the catfish hobby that pepps dont cross breed with commons/albinos/marbles..... believe me when i say plenty of people have tried... in an attempt to get something different that they can then sell for top $$$$.....
to make things even more muddy for you there are ancistrus super red b/n... also is a green variation and a blue variation... not in our country yet... someone needs to do some more line breeding and get some favourable colour mutations happening....

hope that helps a bit more to get you up outa the mud

whats the diff from line to inbreeding? so if i got a albin pair and breed them and then breed the fry the there fry ect you get differnt ones? thats cool! iv seen super reds on the bristlenoe world site

[Buccal]

I myself without researching, am pretty sure they don't change sex.
The male is very distinguishable and I caught many males over 15kg which would be well in excess of 5 years old.
The biggest I caught to date was a male of 18.6 kg.
The biggest known aggregation area where dhu fish travel from amazing distances to meet a new partner for the season is offshore Mandurah.
There are some small gathering areas also.
It's also found that they will pair temporarily and spawn in their resident living quarters.
From Albany to just past of north of Kalbarri where they reside their breeding behavior does change a lot.

[Peckoltia]

Like I said, I am no Dhu fish expert, when I did aquaculture at tafe it was mostly using Pink Snapper.

I'm not sure where you got your info from Johnno, but after doing some reading, your statements couldn't be more false. Dhu fish don't even reach sexual maturity until 3 years old. This species is also sexually dimorphic, with males growing larger than females, they also can have long fin extensions. Commercial fishermen, are just that, fishermen. They are not scientists or biologists. Granted they spend more time on the water than your average scientist, but this does not mean they are clued on when it comes to the internal morphology of marine species. As is evident by the misinformation that you have produced.

Back on topic: From what I get from your post, your reasoning for the lack of hybridisation between catfish of the Ancistrus genus is that they are not closely related enough to reproduce together? and that we probably don't appreciate how closely related many Malawi cichlids are due to geographic isolation and sharing a common ancestor?

I think, this could possibly be plausible reasoning. Although comparing crossing Malawi's with Americans as an example is a little far fetched for me. As we are talking about two catfish of the same Genus that hail from the same river hybridising. You are comparing this to trying to hybridse two fish of the same family (Cichlidae) from different continents! An electric yellow and a red devil are nowhere near as closely related as a peppy and a common bn. Get where I'm coming from?

[fishking123]

yeah i see!