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Hybridization: Good or Evil.


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#1 saudukar

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 09:54 PM

Hybridization: Good or Evil.

I saw a heated debate on the Sydney CS forum and wondered what Perthites thought on this subject.

I must admit in my younger years to coming across a fish that had all the attributes of labidochromis pallidus or Labidochromis cearulus "White" "Pearl". It was being sold by the store as a Ps. Zebra. I purchased this fish and put it in with Electric Yellows. It was a female and it grew to full age but never bred. This fish was DEFINATELY of the family labidochromis.

Looking back now with more experience it was probably something else or a combination of something elses.

Now one of my pet hates is "trade" crossbreeds. I am aware while hybridization occurs in the wild it is not "frequent" enough to effect any long term attribute changes to location specific species.

Now the debate is:

Can you cross breed and still say it is a "species". e.g. A cross breed it becomes a nothing. A undescribed freak.

Or is it justifiable to say "let them all breed" and pick the best for the trade. e.g. When you breed a Electric Yellow with a Labidochromis Frebergi do you sorta get a Labidochromis sp. "Whatever the colouration looks like to the closest natural morph" or "tradename".

I look forward to your responses.

(ps. My personal view is Hybrids are freaks that wouldnt occur in the "natural order" and should be eliminated.)



#2 urodacus

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 10:37 PM

G'day saudukar

Im completely against cross breeding in the hobby. Cross breeding plays a part in the lakes and in the evolution of new species within the lakes. But, in the lakes theres other factors that control the degree of cross breeding and determine the survival of these cross bred fish. Natural selection will weed out any weaker crosses that occasionally turn up, keeping everything in balance.
In home aquaria its a different story though. These fish can be selectively cross bred then raised to maturity, where in the wild they wouldnt have survived. These cross bred fish are then sold, sometimes to people who dont realise, and the gene pool for the species is contaminated.

Personally id prefer fish are kept as close to wild populations as possible. I can see this conversation leading onto pros/cons of selective breeding of fish within their own species for better colouration etc. but im not going anywhere near that yet :p :wall

Cheers
:cheers Jordan



#3 me

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 02:24 AM

Well it is obvious cross breeding isnt hated by everyone due to the blood parrots and there r many more.
Umm my point of view is that i definatly dont encourage cross breeding and who ever gets caught should be penalised. I know peds had soem fish which looked like a melanochromis X but i saw them at an LFS.....with a name on them...?
ALTHOUGH
Who is to say half of the fish we have now arnt crossbreeds....??
Like the Jack dempsy is a result of a dovii and a green terror...........?
maybe we got different species of Juldichromis and Neolamprologus due to NATURAL CROSS BREEDING???

The answers to these questions r probably almost impossible to determine because 24 horu monitoring in the natural isnt possible and we cant go back in time to see how it all started.

But cross breeding in the hobby i do not agree with but it is happening and there isnt much we can do to stop it only by IDENTIFYING the difference from a normal fish.

It is really touch and go topic but i think in general everyone dis-agrees with it !



#4 mtchye

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 02:49 AM

Umm... Just would like to point out Blake that very little natural cross breeding happens in the wild. Different species arise from mutations that thrive better due to environmental influences. You dont need to monitor them 24 hrs to determine this, now that we have DNA testing.

Anyway a lot of this has been covered on the SCP discussion, so i would advise anyone wanting to have a good look at the issues read it there...

pub80.ezboard.com/fthesyd...5716.topic

Visit the:
Perth Cichlid Society Forums



#5 Thalassic Park

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 07:41 AM

Hi,
Cross breeding makes an animal sterile, accept with fish this sterility can take generations of animals before the sterility takes affect. leading to what P.V. Loiselle explained as "leading to a biological dead end".
Conversely, it is In-breeding which leads to speciation.



#6 calvus75

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 08:31 PM

Hey Thalassic,

There are many factors that can lead to speciation. In-breeding depression, or the fixation of alleles within a small population can lead to specation and / or extinction (depending upon the genetic threshold of the species and to a large degree their reproductive cycle / fecundity etc helps determine their ability to stabilise their population).

:cheers

p:)



#7 saudukar

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 10:20 PM

Closely related species do produce fertile offspring. Fish from close localities are probable for species relation but studies have shown inparticular that Malawi Cichlids tend to choose thier own species and type as opposed to other species types for breeding. Which shows another higher order breeding mechanism besides mouth-brooding and aggresive brood protection.

Species that are fairly different will probably produce infertile offspring.

Thats why a larger gene pool to choose from when breeding is necessary.

It always gets up my nose when someone buys small fry to breed from the same brood. There is no dilution of the genetics. Ultimately leeding up to a larger selection of closely related inbred fish for the trade.
On that note any one know of someone with a selection of good quality Lab.\Mel. exasperatus. I have some F2 Stock and am looking for some fairly decent young females. - tech@servite.wa.edu.au



#8 me

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 01:00 AM

What about the jelly bean parrot cichlids then?
The big orange cross breeds like Midas x with sumthgin else...?
If we know they r a cros sbreed then why do people pay good money for them, are they an acceptable fish if so why cant be cross breed other fish?



#9 calvus75

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Posted 18 April 2003 - 05:31 AM

:wall :wall :wall :wall :wall :wall :wall :wall :wall :wall :wall :wall :wall :wall :wall :wall






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