46 replies to this topic

[Noddy65]

Hi everyone
I thought Id post this topic as I was reading another thread just before and got to thinking about the old treating water vs not treating water.

Heres some thoughts:
1. Is chlorine really an issue in Perth water. We dont have chloramines added to our water so its only really chlorine.
2. Many people will do a 25 - 35% water change, doenst this mean that the water being added is immediately diluted even further, given its added to aged/chlorine free water. What is considered a safe level of chlorine?
3. Chlorine is rapidly degraded by organic matter. Many/most tanks will be full of organic matter (algae, plants/waste/filters/tank substrate bacteria). Does this organic matter so rapidly degrade the chlorine we add that it reaches non toxic levels very quickly. Does the dilution of adding the chlorinated water to chlorine free water in the tank mean that the level of chlorine is 'safe' almost immediaetly.
4. If heard people say that their fish flick and get excited/irritated when doing water changes. These people have said its the chlorine. Tony (I think it was Tony) recently posted a thread that this excitment may be due to the dilution of hormones in the water. Can anyone really prove that they have lost fish due to gill damage due to chlorine from a water change?
5. Is treating water just another unneccesary expense that the big companies want us to outlay to help their bottom line?
6. Id love to test the water in a tank imediatly after adding some tap water and see if there are detectable levels of chlorine. Can this be done?

What do people think?

Mike

[cobby]

Good Point Mike

There must be a test of some sort 8O

What about a pool testing kit or would that not be sensitve enough?

Cheers Cobby

[keenas]

Total disolved salts (evaporation method) would measure the amount of chlorine in water. I guess you could use larger volumes of water to measure small quantities of Cl-. Just a thought. Does anyone else know anything else?

[SynoAngel]

I dont think you could use a EC Pen to measure salt levels. Whats to say the chemical additive which removes the chlorine doesn't have salts of its own which raise the EC level.

You would have to use a chlorine test.

Daniel

[Blakey]

Chemical Dechlorinators
There are many products sold for aquarium use that are specifically intended to remove chlorine. Several brand names include: Prime, AmQuel, AP Tap Water Conditioner, Aquasafe Plus, and many more. These all include Sodium Thiosulfate, which reacts with the chlorine (or the chlorine portion of the chloramine) to form harmless chloride ions. The chlorine is completely and totally removed. This reaction happens instantly. The tap water doesn't need to be mixed with the dechlorinator for any amount of time before adding it to the tank. It's safe to just add the dechlorinator as you add the water into the tank.
There is one potential problem if your water is treated with chloramine. As stated above, the dechlorinator reacts with the chlorine portion of the chloramine. The chlorine is eliminated, leaving the ammonia free in the water. As you hopefully know, ammonia is toxic to fish, even in low levels. So, if you use a simple dechlorinator that only contains sodium thiosulfate, you are solving one problem (chlorine) and creating a new problem (ammonia).

Lucky for us aquarists, our aquarium product companies have a solution. Many of the dechlorinator water conditioners include chemicals to convert the ammonia into harmless ammonium. Look a a few labels. My favorite one, Seachem Prime, states: "Removes chlorine, chloramine, and ammonia". Others that I'm sure handle the ammonia include Tetra "AquaSafe NH/CL Formula", Jungle's "ACE", Kordon's "AmQuel", and Kent's "Professional Ammonia Detox". If the label doesn't specifically mention that it neutralizes ammonia, then don't depend on it to safely treat water containing chloramines.


UPDATE
There is an ongoing discussion on APD about Chloramine, and how much of a threat it really represents. Here is some more info about treating Chloramine with a product that only deals with the Chlorine:
EPA Guidelines set a maximum allowed level of Chlorine of 4ppm. Most water supplies target 2-4 ppm Chlorine. Note that 4ppm of Chlorine is actually 5.8ppm Chloramine. (The Chlorine is 69% of the chloramine molecule, ammonia is the other 31%) So, with a possible 5.8ppm Chloramine, you have 4ppm Chlorine, and 1.8ppm ammonia.

Assuming a 100 Liter tank (about 26g):
If you do a 10% water change, you would end up with .18ppm ammonia.
A 25% water change gives you .36ppm ammonia.

Ammonia toxicity varies based on pH and Temperature, but in my book anything more than 0.1ppm ammonia is too much.

Chlorine / Chloramine

Water companies add chlorine or chloramine as a disinfectant to tap water. Chlorine is less stable then chloramine and airs out in just a few days. Some hobbyists simply let the water age for a couple of days before doing the water change, thus airing out the chlorine.

Chloramine is much more stable. That is why communities switch from chlorine. As it is very stable, it does not air out even if heavily aerated.

Chloramine, a mixture of ammonia and chlorine, passes (unlike chlorine) through the fish’s tissue directly into the bloodstream. In the blood, just like nitrite, it destroys the oxygen carrying cells. Chloramine can cause all fish to die within 24 hours.

Chlorine is usually added to the public water supply to destroy harmful bacteria and make it safe to drink. Unfortunately, in high concentrations it is toxic to fish, and even in lower concentrations it causes gill damage and consequent stress. Chlorine is easily removed with a de-chlorinating product (such as NovAqua®) or will dissipate on its own if the water sits in a bucket or tank (with some added circulation, such as an airstone or powerhead) for about 24 hours. NovAqua® also detoxifies copper and other heavy metals while adding to the fishes’ protective slime coating, so it offers many benefits.

Because of the fact that chlorine escapes to the atmosphere naturally, many water companies have taken to adding ammonia as well as chlorine, which creates chloramines. A de-chlorinator alone will only neutralize the chlorine, leaving deadly ammonia behind to stress and potentially kill fish before your biological filter eventually converts it to nitrite and then nitrate in your aquarium. Use of an additional product (such as AmQuel®) to remove ammonia will eliminate that danger.

a bit of reading there

[Neakit]

problem doesn't chlorine break down in the presance of uv wether it be sun or a sterilser.

[Noddy65]

I dont think we have the chloramine issue in our water in Perth...but I could be wrong.

Mike

[Blakey]

i there anyway that the water corp l release documents on the water and how it is treated?

[keenas]

I wouldnt use Electrical conductivity for this as evap method is more accurate IMO. We get chloride ion content done, but not sure what method they use. Will post something tomorrow.

[Noddy65]

It should be a pretty easy thing to find out...I also imagine that the amount of chlorine used would vary from district to district...we dont all use the same water and i imagine they would treat it to effect, not just a blanket treatment.

Mike

[keenas]

Your right about different sources. I had a mate in Beeliar who's tank and water smelt of chlorine every water change, whereas mine on the same day had no aroma. We are less than 10k apart.

[malbone]

I use a water conditioner not for the chlorine but fear of heavy metals.

[keenas]

OK I have spoken with some chemical people, they say a titration with a potentiometer attached isung bromine and Iodine is the best way to work out chlorides. Apparently a non expensive test, but I dont have that gear so I cant do a trial. Chem Centre or SGS would do this type of testing if anyone wants to go further.

[Leevers]

I'm more concerned about the amounts of fluride...


Fact: Did you know that the Germans used Fluride Gases to sedate their prisoners and get them to talk during the world war?

Myth: It's good for your teeth?

Unknown: What are the exact amounts added to our tap water?

Theory/Question: Why don't we argue anything these days? why do we let the government get away with cold murder? why do we not argue to great degree's about fuel prices? or even gas prices?.
Is the amounts of Fluride contributing to this?
Is there a push to drink 2L of water a day purely for our health? or are there political reasoning involved?


Just something that has been running through my mind for a few years and i've never really done much to find out about it, but am happy to share it as it is quite interesting none the less. some think it's a load of rubbish, but how can we be sure? Government gets away with anything these days and governing bodies are run by the same people....

Food for thought

[Noddy65]

I dont know about the flouride conspiracy theories but dental cavities are decreasing Aus wide excpet for Queensland which is the only state that doesnt use flouride (as far as I know).
Of course this data was supplied by the gov so it could be doctored

Mike

[Blakey]

Leevers you need to lay off it man.. ahaha drugs are bad!
We dont fight anymore cause there is no such thing as democracy anymore... we have a say in who runs the country but not how they run it.

[Leevers]

I dont know about the flouride conspiracy theories but dental cavities are decreasing Aus wide excpet for Queensland which is the only state that doesnt use flouride (as far as I know).
Of course this data was supplied by the gov so it could be doctored

Mike

Mike, i totally agree there, but how much are they putting in the water? is it good for you in large amounts.
If someone was to drink 2L in a day and the amounts of Flouride in their diet doubled or even trippled, then what harm is that having on our body?
what is it doing to use?


Blakey, a government is still run by the people. we get all the say in the world as to what goes on. thats what local governments are for. The only issue is, who the hell has enough free time these days in order to have a say or even complain?

[Blakey]

and even if you do complain really .. how much further does it go than a recieptionist..

[ado]

there is plenty of literature available discussing the link between fluoride and tooth decay.

believe conspiracy theories if you like...but the scientific literature (including our good friend Dr Karl) is in favour of the fluoride.

as for chlorine in the water... i have a chlorine test kit made by CHEMetrics, I got it from a chemical engineer.

Everytime i tested my tap water it, and admittedly i have only done it a couple of time, it has come up nil. And it is accurate, measuring from 0.1ppm all the way up to 5.0ppm.

I never add any water conditioner anymore...and all my fish are thriving and breeding

[Blakey]

as has been stated but.. some areas tend to have different water supplies... so maybe it comes down to an individual thing. test your water!

i do know that after a fire truck uses a hydrant near by the amount of water coming out is so strong and fast it distrupts the pipe work around the whole neighbour hood (all the heavy metals and crap in the pipes) The water will come out brown for a while.

my neighbour is a firey and has confirmed this.