72 replies to this topic

[nvrenuf]

My ammonia has droppped to 0.25,
I am picking up a mature filter tomorrow morning from my lfs to chuck in there to speed it along.

so it looks like my filters are finally kicking in.

todays bad advice was from another lfs. not my usuall.

[gibbs]

No problemo

[nvrenuf]

So tomorrow should still be a good idea to stick another filter in yeah ? this will help kill this nitrite that has now popped up ?

Whatever LFS you are going to, i suggest stop going there. They are giving you the wrong info unless you are not understanding them properly.

Ammonia = Bad
Nitrite = Bad
Nitrate = Good

Fish natural produce ammonia through there poo and body. A brand new filter will not do anything with the ammonia until it grows a bacteria colony that will convert the ammonia (bad) into Nitrite (bad). Now that is sorted a second bacteria will grow that turns nitrite (still bad) into nitrate (good at low levels). That is the nitrogen cycle in a nut shell.

What you have to do is get rid of your ammonia which means removing a lot of fish from that tank or increase your filtration, maybe take Mr_Docfish's advice and get some sludge from a mature filter.


Edit: Your nitrite has jumped up which is a good sign, getting some sludge will help hurry the process along which is pretty important at this stage. Nitrite at that sort of level will start killing fish or effect there health.

thanks for that, starting to click now lol So looks like i just need to push through these next couple weeks... and hope for the best

[Ivan Sng]

Here's my 2 cents if you want to hear it...

Your tank is slowly getting cycled and yes your filters are getting established. Good, things are moving along but you are not over the hill yet.

As long as you have salted your water to 1ppt (1kg of salt per 1000L of water). Continue to check your ammonia levels for the next few days. Make sure it drops or remains at 0.25ppm. If it increases, then you might need to do water changes.

Otherwise don't change water, don't add a mature filter, don't add sludge or anything else.... Whatever you do at this point will only either artificially cycled your tank (adding a mature filter or sludge) or delay the cycling (water changes). It takes time for nature to perform its wonders... Patience... A nitrite level of 5 in a 1ppt salted water will be alright for the fishes. Most importantly don't feed....

Continue your aeration, if your air pump has a low/high setting, flick it to high... Depending on how much nitrobacter has already established you could be at this stage for 1-2 weeks more...

[kesaph]

The bacteria that convert ammonia to Nitrites grow first (call 'em A-bacs), 2-3 weeks to grow a fully functioning colony.
Once the Nitrites have been produced, then a new type of bacteria grow (call 'em N-bacs) that convert these nitrites into nitrates. This colony however takes approximately twice as long to establish as they are for more slow growing.

If you have a constant ammonia load (eg from same number of fish) then there will be a steady conversion of ammonia to nitrites by the established A-bacs. However as the N-bacs are slower growing there will be an increasing amount of Nitrate in the water which can compound the situation for the N-bacs, they simply take a long time to catch up. This is known as the Nitrite spike.
Once the N-bac colony is established there is a marked drop in Nitrites, from lots to 0, overnight. At this point the tank is cycled.

Reducing the constant load of ammonia production, ie fish, or amount of food you feed the fish, can help is stabilising the system, however you don't want to stop else the A-bacs will die and stop providing food for the N-bacs.

Make any sense? Hope so.

crossed post with Ivan.

[nvrenuf]

lucky for me the poor little guys have been doing fine, all the fish look great, and colours are good, all seem happy.
So I hope they are , and so far have been making it through this process.

It is so hard to know whats the right thing to do as I get so many varied advice.

At least now i can see change happening which is a good thing , its just trying to get through this last stage now :/

I appriciate everyones input, and thank you for giving advice. As you find some forums / people would rather tell you what you have done wrong than what you need to do to fix it.

every one here has been great,

I will keep updates here each day, for help.


so i guess main thing now is , do i put another filter in or just leave it as mine are nearly there dont want to disrupt it ?

and should I keep doing water changes or not. little ones ?

as for the salts ? 1kg per 1000ltrs ? for my 600 odd or more ltrs I woudl be using my whole container of cichlid salt.. Seems a bit to much ?

Edited by nvrenuf, 22 January 2011 - 02:46 PM.

[gibbs]

Yes add the other filter and run it in for a few weeks, that will definately help.

SALT, i forgot to add this. Salt has a beneficial effect when nitrites are a problem. Nitrites effect the fish by de-oxygenating the blood. Salt helps to prevent this from happening, it will still happen a bit but the full effect is can be avoided.

If i remember correctly the dose is 1 teaspoon of salt for every 5 litres of water. It may sound like a lot but your fish will easily handle it.

[Ivan Sng]

Well here is how I analyse your problem...

Ammonia at 0.25, ph 8.2, temp should be 28degC... so ammonia is safe at this level... if pH is a bit lower or drops a bit.. its fine, actually better...
Actually lowering your tank temperature a bit does help as well... but don't do it as it stresses the fishes...

Salt to 1ppt (do a search on the internet if you are not convinced, but I salt my outdoor tank to 3ppt when I introduce new fresh water fishes...)
Salt mitigate against nitrite poisoning at 1ppt, 3ppt and above helps with stress and prevent opportunistic bugs... Salt is a tonic for freshwater fishes within
the limits...

So in short, with those done, your system is actually in a safe condition for the fishes, provided ammonia don't climb back up again... So stop feeding..

IMO, don't add the mature filter, because you will just "rob" the nitrite present in your water for your own filter's nitrobacter to get established...

The good thing about doing nothing now, (ie not adding anymore things or changing anything) is that once your ammonia and nitrite levels drop to
zero, your tank is cycled. If you add another filter, how would you know when your own filter is cycled before returning mature filter??

Furthermore, mature filter from a lfs that has been giving incorrect information may contains bugs that could spread across your tank and stress the fishes even more...

[nvrenuf]

Excellent thanks, makes sense.

I am just mixing up some salt now in a bucket and about to pour in.

is carbon of any use in this situation as i have heaps of it i have never used .

[Ivan Sng]

Well I don't use carbon, but as far as I know, it helps with removing toxins. Not ammonia or nitrite.

[nvrenuf]

Yeah i never have used it either , guess its good to keep in case something every happens where i need it

[Neakit]

you do realize activated carbon needs to be changed every couple of weeks?

[nvrenuf]

YEs i Realised it wasnt a item that could just sit in there for a long time, which is why I never put it in the filters, still in the box new, Saving it for if i ever need to remove something from tank with it

[bigjohnnofish]

ok guess i better post this as no-one else seems to have thought of it.... poor newbies try so hard.... often with the reward of corpses....

HOPE THIS HELPS to get the message across.....



click on the image to see it enlarged and then you can read the boxes..... even enlarge it again if need be...
copy the pic to your computer then enlarge it again....

Edited by bigjohnnofish, 22 January 2011 - 10:01 PM.

[nvrenuf]

DUmb question but where is the filter in that diagram. as all the image on the net are like yours and dont show filter.. for the slower people like myself haha
thanks

[Ivan Sng]

Well the nitrogen cycle is how ammonia is converted to nitrite and then nitrate with the help of nitrosomonas and nitrobacter. Two important types of bacteria that would establish themselves naturally given sufficient space to grow on and sufficient "food" to feed on...

Hence the filters that are supplied for the aquarium industry basically provides space for both bacteria to grow through providing a compact and porous filter media to allow the bacteria to grow and build a colony. Hence most filter media are porous or have lots of holes and area for the bacteria to grow... The motor or air-lift (sponge filters) basically move oxygenated water through the bacteria colony so that it can filter the water...

Therefore in reality, if you don't stock too heavily, any porous media (3M green sponges or gravel are a suitable surfaces for these bacteria) combined with a constant flow of oxygenated water, you do not need expensive biofiltration. Although solids is a different matter...

Hence why the filter is usually not shown in most nitrogen cycle diagram because it is not relevant...

If you look further, it is also why peeing at fruit trees makes good fertiliser...

In fact, once a new aquarium is setup (filtration and air pump) running, I can cycle an aquarium without any fishes but just by peeing into it, and leave it alone for 1-2 months... Once ammonia and nitrite levels have spiked and gone back to zero, I can pretty add fishes very quickly to the full stocking load of the filtration capacity... This is called fishless cycling...

Edited by Ivan Sng, 22 January 2011 - 11:02 PM.

[nvrenuf]

So how long do you think it will take from this point for ammonia to disapear and nitrite to go away

this morning

ammonia still 0.25
nitrite 5 ish

[nvrenuf]

Should I do a awater change ???????

My ammonia is practically gone I would say 0.1 maybe there, but basically gone.

my nitrate is up to 30ppm ish maybe 40ppm thats good isnt it ?

though bad thing is my nitrite is up at 5 high, it's obviusly the turn for nitrite to peak.
but should i water change ?

thanks

[Ivan Sng]

Well if it was my tank and I have salted to 1ppt, I would do nothing. Let the nitrate build-up a bit more first... Do a water change the moment you see 80ppm...

and don't feed the fishes...

[Mr_docfish]

You are on the right track - the cycle is nearly complete...... however, nitrite at that level can be a problem. Chlorides as in Salt (Sodium Chloride) or riftlake salts (mixture of Calcium/Magnesium Chlorides etc) will minimise the effects of nitrite poisoning by blocking the uptake of nitrite via the gills. Of the different salts, Calcium Chloride is the best salt to use in this case (both the Calcium and the Chlorides will block the uptake pathways), though any other chloride will still work.