64 replies to this topic

[Den]

From the previous discussion regarding the problems of crossing of discus species variants, deep inbreeding and hybridisation to produce new colours and shapes I just thought I'd let you know that the National University of Singapore is not only researching this practice, but doing so to promote further inbreeding and hybridisation of the discus within the Asian aquaculture industry to produce even more colour and fin shape varieties(deformaties in some opinions). These fish will no doubt be sold to buyers in Australia and the rest of the World.

So I just thought I'd let all you discus fanciers know that there are many people out there working to produce and support your demands for genetically modified, inbred, hybridised discus, is this good for the hobby? What about the many millions of deformed baby fish that will be produced and culled to get your next favourite colour strains made? How many natural varieties of discus will get wiped out or threatened to support this massive international practice of cross breeding ?

If hobbiests demanded to buy natural strains I have a slight feeling that these aquaculture industries would be working to breed and preserve natural strains instead, but hey thats probably a silly idea, lolipop colours are more important, right discus lovers?

Before you get seduced by all the colours please do some research on the many beautiful natural discus varieties and demand them instead, you just might get them!, the pioneers that work to save the beautiful discus varieties as nature created them may need to be patient and pay more(though the first batches of fry should be more valuable if you breed them), but each wave of new hobbiests demanding natural discus varieties will make these fish more cheaper and easily available.

I hope the PCS(which is all of us) can take a pioneering step and begin to treat discus with the same respect we treat all other cichlids.


If you want a copy of the scientific report from the Singapore National University here is the link but you need to be a uni student or pay to get it, otherwise PM me and I can PM you a copy for free.
http://www.sciencedi...f92f500f1a8d311


Cheers
Den

[kevy73]

As a Discus keeper, I do agree with what Den has to say, however, I also think that if they can produce hybridised Discus to make nice fancy colours, then they can also do the same to make them look like their natural strained cousins.

Us as mere clients of LFS's are at the mercy of breeders and the stores that sell the fish.

How can you be sure that you are buying the genuine article?

Please don't hate me for mentioning this Craig (Scat), but you were duped with your F1 Yellows. If a extremely experienced hobbyist like Craig who I have massive respect for can get stung, what chance does the 10 year old kid getting into the hobby have?

[Den]

Hey Kevy

I dont mean any disrespect to discus keepers but I think the entire world has been duped by the industry marketing their fancy discus strains.

Like I said previously, Im sure most LFS would agree that if their customers started asking for wild natural strains, stores in turn would offer them, and breeders of natural strains would eventually begin to become established and bring the prices down.

It will take a brave few to pioneer an effort to restore the discus keeping hobby to within the standards expected of all other fish, but I think it will catch on once people become more aware of whats happening. I'm sure this effort would also have better chance for success should cichlid societies and associations advocate and encourage it.

Cheers
Den

[kevy73]

No disrespect felt Den. We are in complete agreeance. My point refers to

Like I said previously, Im sure most LFS would agree that if their customers started asking for wild natural strains, stores in turn would offer them, and breeders of natural strains would eventually begin to become established and bring the prices down.

If more people started asking for these strains, all I can see happening is that the breeders of the fancy coloured strains would start breeding ones to look like natural strains. So we would be buying fish that might 'look' authentic, but are still a hybrid.

[Scat]

Hey Guys

Im far from a extremely expierenced fish keeper in any books !! But yes i was duped by people outside of Perth who sold these fish under a false tag( no harm done kev i freely admit i was wrong )

Ive been quite in all these discus discussions as im a novice at discus am have just bought what i though would be a attractive fish to keep.

But thanks Den im learning heaps

Cheers
Craig

[Den]

Hi Craig

After reading all the posts in this discussion, how do you feel about dicsus now?

Do you think there will ever be a day that the PCS will treat hybrid and line bred discus like all other hybrids?

Am I under the current PCs guidlines allowed to sell and display fish that are Tropheus Morilo x Tropheus Kaiser 1?

Am I under the current PCs guidlines allowed to sell and display fish that are Cyphotilapia gibberosa "kapampa" x Cyphotilapia gibberosa "kigoma" ?

Also considering that most "man made" discus varieties cannot be distinguished between what is Hybrid and what is Line bred(seems that most are hybrid or will eventually become hybridised due to current discus breeding practices) why is the Blue jack dempsey banned as this is a fish in a similar catagory, know one really knows if its line bred or hybrid?
http://www.practical...g.php?blogid=97

Would appreciate if the PCS comittee would clear this up.


Cheers
Den

[Scat]

Hi Den

As far as how i feel about my discus now, well i still love them

As far as the PCS stance on this im sure this will be raised at the next committee meeting, i dont have a answer for you myself as i know little about hybrids.

Cheers
Craig

[Fish Antics]

The Clubs policy for the breeders award program and breeding competition has recently been updated to conform to those in other states and with most in America and Europe. That is to where possible to maintain the integrity of locality or natural colour specific species groups. Therefore Crossing Tropheus Morilo x Tropheus Kaiser 1 would not be acceptable. and would not be recognised or encouraged by the club. However with line bred or Aquarium strains such as Discus, Angels and other Cichlids such as some Peacocks eg Red rubins, which are not Hybrids, can only be recognised once as a species for the yearly competition and only the locality specific natural forms for the Breeders Award program.

Tony

[Den]

Hi Tony

According to the University of Singapore and most other information sources I can find you are incorrect in your information on these fish and the way we uphold our clubs policy.

Please do not take offence but I urge the committee to take some proffesional advice on this matter as currently we are not properly managing the clubs policy which you have stated.

That is to where possible to maintain the integrity of locality or natural colour specific species groups.

The ambitions of commercial discus breeders are in complete opposite to this standard, in fact 99.999999% of discus breeders work to create fish as far from their normal natural forms are as possible in all aspects of colour, pattern and shape. Discus breeders do this by a mixture of cross breeding variants, inbreeding, line breeding and hybridisation(which contravenes the same rule as all other hybrids), not only do they freely admit this practice but there is also scientific evidence to support it, which I can provide to the committee.

I can provide scientific material on genetics research which shows that current man made discus varieties which represent over 99.99% of discus in our LFS and sold on this forum completely contravene our current PCS policy.

The current "disagreements" regarding the discus species/hybridisation debate I strongly suspect is caused by the commercial discus aquaculture industry who have alot to loose should the truth be found and accepted, so they continue to keep the subject debated and confused, hence the current kaos and mismanagement of policy enforcement worldwide. Its a bit like trusting the oil Companies saying there is not such thing as global warming! But there really is no arguement, all manmade discus contravene cichlid club policy.

I have heard many discus keepers who say they love discus(how about understanding discus too?), I'm a guy who loves cichlids, and I will not rest until I see the madness ended and discus treated with the same respect as all other cichlids.

Overall there are commercial interests both here within and around our PCS and other clubs worldwide who ensure that the general fish keeping community is kept misinformed and while the natural discus gene pool is destroyed both within the hobby and natural habitat, not that there are any natural strains generally available within the hobby which should be most alarming to our club!- what little arrives of wild natural strains discus "lovers" take them and cross breed them to prop up their fouled gene pools!. "Just shutup, ignor the hideos truth and enjoy the colours!" and it seems unfortunate that currently all our committee members and discus hobbiests are willing to do so, for now, Im sure once they are informed, many will see the light.

Considering our clubs stance on tropheus crosses and hybrids it seems we have the correct policies already in place to protect and preserve the different "beautiful natural" species and variants of the discus, its seems just a matter for the committee to become properly informed and to begin to enforce the good policies of our society uniformly and protect the discus together with all the other cichlids we work to protect.

Frankly overall the current discus industry and hobby does not comform with the general practice of cichlid keeping and is a threat to the natural genetic diversity of the various strains and species of Discus.

Cheers
Den

[newfish]

Hi All
It has been interesting reading to view different perspectives and information regarding Discus. Perhaps it is worth the Committee establishing a clear definition of a "hybrid" as a point of clarification? A hybrid can be defined as the offspring of different species (as Donna has mentioned in an earlier post). We must also consider what constitutes a "species". A "species" can be defined as a group of similar creatures that can reproduce to create fertile offspring. Given that the line-bred Discus can produce fertile offspring, it stands then that they are not "hybrids", by this definition. If we are to use these definitions, then the confusion regarding "hybrids" may be reduced.

I am not defending the diminished gene-pool of the "powdered watermelon" (I liked that one) discus. I agree with Den in his concern that consumer fascination with fancy discus varieties may be to the detriment of the species. I would dearly love to keep and breed "natural" varieties of discus. I also commend the PCS for its endeavour to maintain naturally occurring variants, and the genetic variation they possess, of different fish species. However, humans have selectively bred animals since they were first domesticated, producing various breeds and strains. This is often a very useful practice and should not necessarily be viewed as "bad". The hundreds of domestic dog breeds are still members of the same species, for example.

Anyhoo, just thought I would throw my five cents worth in.... I will go and annoy my Discus, Rainbows and Geophagus varieties. I think they are all beautiful and warrant a place in my small but eclectic collection.

Have a fantastic weekend
Erica

[STEVEGREEN]

i know nothing about discus , nut i can read , this post is very interesting but Den i believe your fighting a battle lost 20 odd years ago , i agree with everything youve said but these are discribed as "ornamental fish" and runs parralels with the "flowerhorn"

http://www.aquariumh...ains/index.html

i just had a look at this site , i didnt know that there are only 4 species of discus , but reading between the lines they can very a bit in colour shape etc etc.

let me state , ive never liked discus and would never consider keeping them , they just simply don't interest me and IMO just look s**t house. to add to this it seems that all the most sort after discus avalible are MAN MADE , what a waste of time even trying to keep and breed them , seem's to me if you were to make the effort to breed pure strains of say... brown discus, they would be as popular as AIDS ( no one would want them )

I didn't write this to enrage discus people , i don't expect anyone to like the species i love/keep/breed but why would you want fish that you can not observe the natural interaction and enjoy having a "little bit of Borneo" in your living room. All you really do have is overpriced crap concoted up by some slimy basterd in malasia/singapore who is playing GOD to make a buck.

I believe Den's on the right track , this forum show ban all purchases/sales of any discus outside of the 4 recognized species and all of those keeping man made s**t should be pointed and laughed at.

i dont believe that the PCS should be a place for those who are not interest in preserving all species in the natural form.

most discus do not satisfy this criteria

Help the fish trade by flushing your man made crap today

Steve Green

[Den]

Hi Steve

Thanks for your comments, the battle 20 years ago must have needed a better General , your opinion on discus really expresses what I am trying to say, there are many hobbiests who dont get involved with discus partly because of the way the natural discus pool is fouled and tainted by current discus enthusiasts.

People go crazy over new man made varieties and pay more for them which just encourages the breeders to increase their practice of destroying the natural gene pool of all natural discus coming into the hobby.

The only thing that can save them is a change of attitude, and that can only start at the grass roots level, which requires the support of the PCS in banning man made discus.


Cheers
Den

[Scat]

Hi

Some interesting opinions getting bounced around atm !!

I didn't write this to enrage discus people

all of those keeping man made s**t should be pointed and laughed at.

Help the fish trade by flushing your man made crap today

I must say i see the funny side of these lol.

Everyone has and is entitled to their opinion but this doesnt mean that their opinion is always the correct one.

Just for clarification im speaking for myself and not representing the club with my comments on this also.

I agree that further discussion and investigation should be undertaken on this subject but feel that labeling all discus breeders as "overpriced crap concoted up by some slimy basterd in malasia/singapore who is playing GOD to make a buck.' Does this put Jack Wattley in the same basket also to whom is a respected breeder of discus worldwide over the last 40 years ?

I for one will not be running out to flush all my discus to which im proud to keep atm and will continue to keep fish that interest me.

Im positive that the issue will come up at the next committee meeting for discussion and will consider the clubs position on this issue.

i dont believe that the PCS should be a place for those who are not interest in preserving all species in the natural form.

That is a broad statement that maybe we should consider, guppys,mollys,platies,angelfish,any longfinned varities of fish ect ect.

If the PCS did go with the banning of man made,line bred, hybridized, selectively bred or whatever label that you wish to put these under then in my own opinion i would remove myself from the club.

Craig

[Den]

Im positive that that issue will come up at the next committee meeting for discussion and will consider the clubs position on this issue.

That is a broad statement that maybe we should consider, guppys,mollys,platies,angelfish,any longfinned varities of fish ect ect.

If the PCS did go with the banning of man made,line bred, hybridized, selectively bred or whatever label that you wish to put these under then in my own opinion i would remove myself from the club.

Craig

HI Craig

Man made discus seem to be currently contravening the policies and standards that our Cichlid Society strives for.

The club as I see it has a few choices:

1. To change policy and accept all hyrbids so that man made discus continue to be promoted by the club, its sponsors and members through the media of the PCS.

2. To change policy and employ a double standard position where hybrid discus are OK and all other hybrids are banned.

3. To leave things as they are and continue to allow our clubs policy to be violated.

Craig threatening to leave the club I think is dissapointing as you are a great person and contributor to the club, I say dissapointing as to make such a statement I can only assume that your fish hobby has become very specialised and focused on a man made group of fish and you have lost your interest in the many other species and natural forms of cichlids this club represents. Perhaps you need to consider in all fairness should a club who's entire purpose is dedicated to the preservartion of cichlids in their natural form both in the wild and in the hobby the place to be using to promote your now focused interest in a man made group of fish?

Craig I also wanted to mention, given your tastes I've seen in the styles of discus which you call as your favourites, it seems you have a natural taste for the ones that look closer to the natural varieties, my suspicion is that the only reason why you aren't keeping natural discus(like many other hobbiests) is due to a lack of exposure to them and lack of local demand and availablity which I largely blame on the marketing of hybrids, this situation is what I am trying to improve for all our members with this topic and agenda. I dont want other members to fall into the hybrid trap.

Cheers
Den

[Fish Antics]

The Aim of the PCS is:

We are a non profit organisation whose aim is to promote the conservation of the neotropical fish family Cichlidae world-wide and the responsible husbanding of the species within Australia, by educating our members and the general public through a friendly sharing of knowledge at our general meetings, open days and special promotions. The theme of our meetings is to have a good time, learn and share knowledge.

In my opinion the key words in there are education through a Friendly format. I think the club has been very successful in following this aim. It is through the work of the club and the efforts of those enthusiastic fish keepers that shops now sell fish using their full scientific name and locality. The Club has a ban on Hybrids which we strictly adhere to and through education try and encourage people not to keep them. There is no argument that Hybrids are dangerous to the hobby for various reasons already discussed on many other threads.
Line bred specimen and aquarium strains are not Hybrids as they are the same species, bred to enhance various attractive colour forms or physical features. Again the Club policies promote the natural form, by only recognising Natural variations. Many fish such as Discus and Angel fish have many aquarium strains, which in most cases are all belonging to the one central species. There is still debate on whether all Discuss belong to in fact one, rather than the four separate species you mention.
We all in some way line breed with our fish. We only choose to keep or buy the "better" quality fish for our stock to produce the best offspring with the best condition and colour.
Breeding our own fish also help conservation of the natural fish populations. The more fish are bred locally the less are taken from wild populations. Aquarium Strains, as the name suggests are bred in Aquariums and are not going to be released back into the wild. In fact no aquarium fish should be released into the wild. Aquarium strains I would also suggest would have a very poor chance of survival in the natural world.
I think Craig’s statement was intended to say that if the club had a hard-line, elitist view you seem to be advocating, it would not be the place that many people would enjoy to come and learn more about the various fish they like to keep.
I feel the clubs role in the debate is to continue to educate and promote the keeping of fish, especially Cichlids for people to enjoy their fish and the hobby and to encourage them to learn about their fish. From this the knowledge they have can help promote the conservation of cichlids.
Banning purchases/sale of any line bred species would not serve any real benefit to the hobby, club, shops or the aquarium hobby in general.
I am pleased that you have such an extreme view, and when the day comes when the majority of PCS members agree with you the constitution can be voted on and changed to only include those fish you feel acceptable to be enjoyed

Tony

[Den]

Hi Tony

Thanks for your comments, I'm afraid most information I find from academic and proffesional sources disagree's with a number of your comments and the way our club upholds its policy on hybrids.

The Club has a ban on Hybrids which we strictly adhere to and through education try and encourage people not to keep them. There is no argument that Hybrids are dangerous to the hobby for various reasons already discussed on many other threads.

It is true that Hybrids have been strictly banned by the PCS, which has been enforced on all hybrids with the exeption of man made Discus and Angelfish.

Again the Club policies promote the natural form, by only recognising Natural variations. Many fish such as Discus and Angel fish have many aquarium strains, which in most cases are all belonging to the one central species. There is still debate on whether all Discuss belong to in fact one, rather than the four separate species you mention.

This comment is inccorect and to the contrary, currently the club promotes the unnaturual forms of discus, and the discus species arguement is wether some of the various forms of some species of discus are actually seperate species, if anything further studies may prove wether the current discus forms will be divided into further species. Future studies may see the number of species grow. Discus are currently taxonomcially divided into 4 species, so we know that currently there is more than one species of Discus which are being used to make man made discus, so there is no arguement whether most man made discus are hybrids, this is a known and proven fact amongst proffessionals and educated hobbiests.

Heres a simple explanation why there is no arguement, most man made discus are hybrids, those few that arent eventually will be due to current breeding practices, they are mostly hybrids full stop, if you dont believe me ask any ichthyologist:
http://www.practical...m.php?news=1330

Line bred specimen and aquarium strains are not Hybrids as they are the same species, bred to enhance various attractive colour forms or physical features

Again most man made discus are hybrids, I can only assume that to make such a comment you have never seen a wild discus, or the man made ones? when you look at man made such as panda, malborough, yellows, snowflakes(and the rest) it shows discus breeders work to make discus as far from the wild form as possible, is this what you mean by enhance?

I feel the clubs role in the debate is to continue to educate and promote the keeping of fish, especially Cichlids for people to enjoy their fish and the hobby and to encourage them to learn about their fish. From this the knowledge they have can help promote the conservation of cichlids.

With all due respect, I have now seen several committee members including yourself make countless completely inccorrect and misleading statements regarding this issue, comments which completely work against the proper education and conservation of the different Discus species and their various forms which are all cichlids.

Banning purchases/sale of any line bred species would not serve any real benefit to the hobby, club, shops or the aquarium hobby in general.
I am pleased that you have such an extreme view, and when the day comes when the majority of PCS members agree with you the constitution can be voted on and changed to only include those fish you feel acceptable to be enjoyed

OMG Im sorry mate but this comment leaves you quite open, Ill try to be gentle. It seems the banning of other hybrids by the PCS is done for the opposite reason mentioned in your first sentence. My view is no further extreme than our clubs position on Blue Demseys, Panda Frontosa, cross bred tropheus, and all other varient crosses and hybrids. I beleive if you read the current poll, I like the majority of fellow hobbiests like to see the different species of discus enjoyed the same way we enjoy all our cichlids EL-NATURAL!.

I plead that we keep this discussion clean with respect to all people and their opinions, please dont take offense if I disagree or prove an opinion wrong and I wont take offense should I be proven wrong, but I do as much research as possible before I answer any questions or make comments so I do my best to be a dependable source for correct information and I appologise in advance should I make an incorrect or misleading statement.

Cheers
Den

[FishGal]

Interesting discussion, I have no opinion as of yet BUT I do have a rather probably "blonde" question!

Hybridised means two separate species have been bred to produce a mixture of both parents in the one offspring - the offspring being the hybrid, is that correct?

I haven't read everything you've posted Den (I just don't have the patiences, sorry! ) but can you tell me what Discus have been crossed with to produce the many varied colours available in most LFS, that would make them hybrids?

Cheers!

[FishGal]

Duh you just answered my question before I posted it! So there are four species of Discus? So they are all crossed with each other to produce the colour variants we have today? But of course if they aren't all the same species, then they aren't just colour variations are they, they are crosses of species which makes them hybrids but essentially they ARE all still Discus no?

I'm confused (it doesn't take much!)

[STEVEGREEN]

Big discus website , the more i read the sicker i get , cant believe there cichlids , they are completely doomed

"
IDF has the following mission:

To provide best quality of discus to Malaysia and international customers, we assure you consistent quality of our discus when you are dealing with us.

To develop new fine discus strains for our customers from time to time. We believe Ideas on discus is never ended, we keen to develop new patterns and colours on the fish to present to worldwide discus lovers.

After all, We Colour the Fish.
"
imagine a prominant cichlid breeder or store with that catch phrase " After all , we colour the fish "

i regards to line breeding , discus situation is very differant , the 4 species that occur in the wild have taken 1000's of years to evolve , and they didnt cross to produce 1000's of species unlike alot of malawi's and tang's , after all most of the mbuna were created by slightly different colourations in males being more atractive to the females , the girls would follow the oddly coloured male to a new location and breed. this is extremely recognisable in the tropheus genus.

and the coment about Jack is interesting and made me think , Jack has started the problem and companies like IDF are making the dollars from the trade. so yeah i blame peeps like Jack Wattley , i wonder what other cichlid experts think of him ?

i agree with tony though , PCS should be a friendly open club for those who want to learn and share info , but this does open a kettle of fish so to speak , if someone wants to sell flowerhorns in the classifides , where do we stand ?

what is to be done with current shop sponsers promoting large quantities of discus and dedicating large amount of tanks for this .

politically this is a hot topic but if most vote in the poll against the promotion of man made "strains" of discus it would be dissapointing for the committee to not act upon the majority opinion of it's members , and as a unfinancial member my vote should not count.

i do feel for those whom already have discus in there tanks and have fallen in love with there crossbreeds. i for one have never put any thought into discus as 4 odd years ago when i was involved heavily with PCS only Vincent i believe was playing with them , they were definately not hot property.

i just know that a decision will have to be made , and for some , it will end in tear's

glad i'm not on the committee

[Den]

Its OK it is a little confusing fishGal, look at it this way

each of the seperate Discus species has its own number of colour/pattern/shape varients. Imagine each seperate discus species as a set of Frontosa's, just like Fronts, each locality has its different colours/patterns, but with fronts there is only one species with different colour varients, with discus there are at least 3 species and each has different colour/pattern/shape varients.

This has happened because of the huge range discus inhabit in the wild(the Amazon as you know its big!), this is allowing discus species to evolve seperately and if they ever have a future they may become completely different looking in colour and shape as they continue to seperately evolve and the current discus hobby does not support or respect to preserve this natural diversity.

Steve, LOL what can I say? or what havent I said, like I said the discus enthusiasts are very keen for new hybrids and the breeders are thus keen to make them, at any cost!, they are frenzied by the marketing exposure and worse and more fanatical than flower horn fans IMO.