110 replies to this topic

[Ronny]

Thanks Laz,

I'll start here

[ozarowana]

Yes, I understand your point, I have seen G. proximus included in the Surinamensis Group in numerous sources, however I have read reference to the Proximus group before as well (I'll try to dig up the article). Also, if G. sp. "Tapajos" and "Arapiuns/Araguaia" are part of the proximus group then I would expect both the G. sp. "Xingu" variant which as I understand is also larvophilous and the "Tapajos II" variant which is apparently ovophilous to all be in the same group, even though the G. sp. "Tapajos II" variant is ovophilous and not larvophilous like the other three. Therefore if G. proximus is taxonomically similar to the orange head variants then I can't see any reason that this would not be so.

Are we sure there is a Xingu variant? I'll ask keith if he has seen any in that new book of his. I don't believe the "Tapajos II" is a variant of the same species (as the OHs... due to brooding behaviour, size etc). I don't think we should make those assumptions as there is no evidence to support this, there is probably more evidence against it. The word "variant" should probably be left to describe within a species. It would be good if we can get hold of as much info as possible regarding the "Proximus group", like defining characterics or meristics and a species list or something would be great.

Also I would expect S. jurupari and S. leucosticta to be classed in the same group (and as similar) even though they are ovophilous and larvophilous mouthbrooders respectively.

I don't believe there is a group for these is there? Not sure on this...

According to Heiko, it is Sven Kullander who classified the OH's into the proximus group. The thing that puzzles me a bit though is their inclusion within the proximus group even though they lack a preopercal mark (apart from that one oh in that picture by Weidner that does have a preopercal mark), I'm still having trouble getting my head around that one, have you come across any other pics of orange/red heads with such a mark?

Nope... only that one pic in the book.

AS MENTIONED ABOVE, I DO NOT THINK THIS COLORATION IS RESTRICTED TO ONLY THE ARAPIUNS VARIANT. BUT PLEASE UNDERTSND WHAT I BEEN SAYING FOR A LONG TIME: THE ARAPIUNS VARIANT IS DEFINITLY THE MORE COLOURFUL ONE OF THE THE G. "PROXIMUS" FROM THAT DRAINAGE (WHICH IS FREQUENTLY CALLED "ARAGUAIA", WHERE NO ONE COLLECTED COMMERCIALLY (in the Araguaia), NOR ARE FISHES EXPORTED FROM - TO FAR AWAY - NO ACCESS (EXCPET BY ROAD VIA BRASILIA) AND NOR COMMERCIAL FLIGHTS (NO LANDING STRIP).

Heiko wrote this on p5... I believe this not to be true. There are "Araguaia" variants of B. cupido, C. temensis and two Crenicichla sp. in the Amazon Exotic Import gallery. Maybe they are mislabelled too

[ozarowana]

Have been in contact with Keith RE: the book.
http://www.datz.de/Q...01DC366B38B4D6C
It's not in english, but is more recent (2004 vs 2000) than the Weidner book and has plenty of pics. Available as a PDF too... I'll try getting my hands on a copy.

He says there are a few pics of OH types from the Tapajos, Xingu and Araguaia/Tocantins. The last two being labelled G. sp. "Xingu I" and G. sp. "Tocantins" respectively.

[LC60]

Are we sure there is a Xingu variant? I'll ask keith if he has seen any in that new book of his.

Yes Keith has told me there is a Xingu variant in the book, at this stage I don't know if this fish is a variant of the OH's or a different species.

I don't believe the "Tapajos II" is a variant of the same species (as the OHs... due to brooding behaviour, size etc). I don't think we should make those assumptions as there is no evidence to support this, there is probably more evidence against it. The word "variant" should probably be left to describe within a species.

Yes, I agree with you that G. sp. 'Tapajos II'/G. sp. 'Tapajos' is a different species due to brooding behaviour. I was in error using the word variant here, I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the four fish referred to as being closely related.

It would be good if we can get hold of as much info as possible regarding the "Proximus group", like defining characterics or meristics and a species list or something would be great.

Yes it would, I haven't had much time for research lately, but I would like to look into this with you, work together and compare notes etc. here if you have time to, I know you've been busy with your own work, how is it coming along? Is the end in sight?

I don't believe there is a group for these is there? Not sure on this...

I'm not sure if there is a group as such, I guess demon fish could apply to all Satanoperca species, but with regard to 'grouping' similar types of fish, I couldn't imagine S. jurupari and S. leucosticta being grouped separately due to brooding behaviour, but I guess I could be wrong here. What do you think?

Nope... only that one pic in the book.

That strikes me as really odd. I just can't imagine that if there was one with a gill cover mark that it could be the only one, I find it puzzling.

Heiko wrote this on p5... I believe this not to be true. There are "Araguaia" variants of B. cupido, C. temensis and two Crenicichla sp. in the Amazon Exotic Import gallery. Maybe they are mislabelled too

I can't imagine that either (mislabelling of all those species) and no collecting from the Rio Araguaia when we have so many species being identified from the Araguaia/Tocantins system. We really need to get hold of some collection point data (GPS position and Pics would be great) for each of the oh types to be positive, if that information is available anywhere, I think either you or Keith mentioned someone that you can contact who is based in the area and exports. It would be good to get some feedback from him if possible. With regard to the 2 types that we know to be OH variants, I find that it makes more sense to me though that the OH type thought to come from the Rio Araguaia could actually come from the Arapiuns. The only sources I can find referring to the OH 'Araguaia' all lead back to Thomas Weidner..........could he have been in error? With maybe somewhere between collection and delivery to him and then to Albering, 'Arapiuns' being confused with 'Araguaia'? It seems strange to me that we can find no reference to OH 'Araguaia' since then except those based on Weidner. I haven't been able to find any later reference to these from European sources. All OH's seem to come from the Tapajos in more recent times. With the proximity of the Arapiuns to the Tapajos this would make more sense.

Right now the only labells I'm really confident to use for these fish are G. sp. Red Head, G. sp. Orange Head, and maybe G. sp. Orange Cap, but I'm not sure that the last two aren't the same, just variation in head colour within the same type/variant. So many times I think I have it all worked out with these fish, only to end up confused and unsure again, hmmm and that usually seems to be after talking with you , and that's good. You make good points Chuongy and I enjoy discussing this with you. Maybe one day we will get it sorted out

Cheers
Larry

[LC60]

Have been in contact with Keith RE: the book.
http://www.datz.de/Q...01DC366B38B4D6C
It's not in english, but is more recent (2004 vs 2000) than the Weidner book and has plenty of pics. Available as a PDF too... I'll try getting my hands on a copy.

He says there are a few pics of OH types from the Tapajos, Xingu and Araguaia/Tocantins. The last two being labelled G. sp. "Xingu I" and G. sp. "Tocantins" respectively.

I have a copy of this book coming, I can't wait to get into it. It will be interesting to see those pics and see what the author has to say.

Cheers
Larry

[LC60]

Have been in contact with Keith RE: the book.
http://www.datz.de/Q...01DC366B38B4D6C
It's not in english, but is more recent (2004 vs 2000) than the Weidner book and has plenty of pics. Available as a PDF too... I'll try getting my hands on a copy.

He says there are a few pics of OH types from the Tapajos, Xingu and Araguaia/Tocantins. The last two being labelled G. sp. "Xingu I" and G. sp. "Tocantins" respectively.

Albering (1999) references/cites? Stawikowski (1999) Post # 75:

"Stawikowski described some eartheater types in the March edition of 1999 the DCG information out of the Rio Araguaia and the Rio Tocantins, that show in part some morphoplogical resemblances with the fish introduced here. A further very similar kind - Geophagus spec. Red Head " Rio Tapajós" – originates from another river system, it seems however, at least on the basis of the colouring and the body form to be closely related. Also Geophagus spec. " Rio Tocantins" shows a very similar bar pattern and examination of the fin patterns suggests it could represent a kind of sister."

which is great to be getting some consistency from from different sources at last, I can't wait to see those pics and read what they have to say.
something else I've thought of too, I'll send you a pm.

Cheers
Larry

[LC60]

I recently received my copy of The American Cichlids 3, the German book by Stawikowski and Werner (2004) and have begun translating the section on Orange Heads. Starting on page 317, the authors report: "In the fish collection of the Natural History Museum of Humboldt University (Berlin), we found an eartheater that Agassiz has collected during the Thayer Expedition, 1866 Cameta on the lower Tocantins, both the shape of the animal as well as the (still weak) detectable cross bands allow their identification as G. sp. "Tocantins"."

They go on to say: "The first animals were imported in 1989 or 1990 by the company Transfish from the lower Rio Tocantins (Para, Brazil). Staeck (1990) placed the species in a report about the display aquarium at the Natural History Museum Braunschweig as G. sp. "Araguaia"."

So I guess that settles the argument as to whether or not they exist. The authors seem to place a lot of emphasis on the bar pattern with regard to identifying and differentiating between the 3 orange head types (Tapajos, Xingu and Araguaia/Tocantins), whereas there appears to be a lot of variability in the fish that we have here (I'll talk about this later).

Cheers
Larry

[Ronny]

Again, very interesting, doesn't help when differant sources conflict with eachother lol.

When you say differant variation in the fish here, do you mean within spawns or the fish in general?

[fryparty]

ill definitely take part with any help if i can.
i have a fwe specimens to add.
8D

[Laz]

Sorry to drag up this old thread but for any who may have been following this, I came across this statement in a very interesting recent article/profile on the Seriously Fish Forum:

'First collected in 1991 by German aquarists Christop Seidel and Rainer Harnoss (Steinhaus, 2010) from the rio Tapajós, eastern Brazil. A second form which differs slightly in head colour and morphology later appeared in the trade as G. sp. ‘orange head Araguaia’, referring to the major tributary of the rio Tocantins. The rio Xingu lies between the Tapajós and Tocantins so this led to speculation that there should exist an ‘orange head’ form in that drainage, too.'

'However it's now known for certain is thatthere exists no ‘orange head’ Geophagus species in the Araguaia or Xingu</b> – it is in fact highly endemic and confined to the lower Tapajós. The ‘orange head Araguaia’ form mostly inhabits the main river channel while the more intensely-coloured variant occurs in the rio Arapiuns. The latter tributary empties into the Tapajós close to its mouth, on the opposite bank to the city of Santarém and a little downstream of the Alter Do Chão lagoon which is the primary collection point for the aquarium trade.'

Here's the link to the article/Profile: http://www.seriously...g...us&species=[pl]sp.+%27orange+head%27[/pl]&id=748

So this would support Heiko Bleher's earlier statement that there are no Geophagus Orange Heads in the Rio Araguaia.

However we still have the reference of a Geophagus sp. Orange Head in the Rio Tocantins (P. 317-320, Stawakowskiand and Werner, 2004), which of course the Rio Araguaia flows into, also an Orange Head variant the Rio Xingu.

We also have Thomas Weidner in 2000 introducing the G. sp. Orange Head 'Tapajos' and G. sp. Orange Head 'Araguaia'in his Eartheaters book.

While this argument has been going around for a while, at present there appears to be no proof that the 'Araguaia' variant is actually from the Rio Arapiuns, it could be interesting to track down the source of this information to verify or disprove.

If anyone knows any more or could add to this, please contribute.

Cheers

Larry

ill definitely take part with any help if i can.
i have a fwe specimens to add.
8D

Hi fryparty, sorry I've taken so long to respond, I've just had a few ongoing distractions but getting things back on track now. You have some lovely fish, I'd like to see some more recent pics too if thats ok. Also any knowledge you have of their origin. Have you had any luck with them spawning?

Cheers
Larry

Edited by Laz, 20 June 2011 - 12:37 AM.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi guys,

long thread and little (almost no) time I must finish two books... Bt in short:

1. Scientifically the Geophagus sp. with the orange and/or red head and dorsally red (in some or depending on breeidng or not), are up to this day considered to be Geophagus proximus and G. proximus (variants or colour morphs) is found throughout the upper, middle and lower Amazon basin.
2. Therefore Geophagus proximus (variants) are also found in the Araguaia-Tocantins-Xingu rivers. BUT IN NONE IS A red-headed/red-shoulder variant. THOSE are LIMITED to the Tapajós/Arapiuns rivers.
3. Only recently is a Geophagus 'proximus-variant' been described from the Rio Tocantins: Geophagus sveni Lucinda, Lucena & Assis 2010, but also that one HAS NO RED nor ORANGE HEAD.
4. The species often in the trade/hobby mentioned as Geophagus sp. 'Araguaria' with a ornage and/or red head is totally misleading and simply wrongly named by someone. Also none of the specimens Stawikowski/Werner, DCG, etc. mention (1990, 2000, 2004, etc.) form the Araguaia and Tocantins shown in publications from those places show a orange or red head. Those have (to my seeing and research) all been Geophagus proximus variants (or the newly described sveni) WITHOUT ANY ORANGE OR RED DORSALLY.
5. Besides: I have started to collect fishes extensively in the Rio Araguaria and Tocantins in 1965 (and I was the first worldwide to expoort all fishes from those two river, including the Tocantins Discus with my Aquarium Rio, at that time located in Rio de Janeiro). And I went back many times to those two rivers, and Xingu, during the last part of the 20th Century and in the new Millennium (2000, 2002, 2004, 2006) and NEVER EVER SAW A RED OR ORANGE HEADED Geophagus variant there.
6. You all can also look at the http://www.cichlidae...ies.php?id=2633 site and will also see no orange or red headed Geophagus picture from those areas on there very good site.

I hope you all can live with that and actually I hope to see you all in October,

best regards
Heiko Bleher