21 replies to this topic

[waruna]

G'day,

I would like to discuss a few things about Tropheus. Firstly i want to hear from hobbyists who think that Tropheus are Vegetarian or strict herbivorous fish.

If you believe this can you please explain to me why they eat their own fry? I mean if they are a vegetarian fish shouldn't we be able to breed them and let the females release the fry among the adults in the same tank? Please explain this behavior?

I think it would be foolish to think this behavior is only seen in captive bred Ts.

Also if i remember correctly Ad Konings once wrote in one of his books (Tanganyika Cichlids in their natural habitat???) that even though the majority of their stomach content contains vegetable matter (in the wild), what actually grow them are all the crustaceans, small snails and aquatic animals that lives and feeds on algae beds. That is where they get their Protein from.

Secondly, i would like to hear from hobbyists who think all vegetarian or Spirulina based foods are the only foods that can be fed to Tropheus. What is the reason behind this?

Thirdly, i want hear from any one who thinks New Life Spectrum fish foods cannot be fed to Tropheus. Or by feeding NLS the Ts. will get bloat!!! Anyone?

Cheers.

[bales-aus]

My understanding is that Tropheus are not "strictly" herbivores.
They do graze on algae, however they do eat small crustaceans in the process. This does not mean you should go and feed your Tropheus brine shrimp or something of that nature.
Tropheus' stomach's are pretty sensistive and any small changes to their diet can cause the dreaded bloat.

I know many people who have kept Tropheus on an NLS diet and done so very successfully.
It comes down to where you get your Troph's from and what their previous owner fed them. As said befor any change can upset them.

Hope this has been helpful and good luck with your fish.

Cheers Bales

[highlucks]

I would like to discuss a few things about Tropheus. Firstly i want to hear from hobbyists who think that Tropheus are Vegetarian or strict herbivorous fish.

As posted above they graze on algae and aufwuch's in their natural habitat. which contains microscopic crustaceans and other non vegetable organisms.

If you believe this can you please explain to me why they eat their own fry? I mean if they are a vegetarian fish shouldn't we be able to breed them and let the females release the fry among the adults in the same tank? Please explain this behavior?

who knows from what I have been told they do not always do this. Perhaps it is just part of the learning curve of being a new parent.

I think it would be foolish to think this behavior is only seen in captive bred Ts.

I can not comment as mine are yet to breed and I do not have any WC's

Also if i remember correctly Ad Konings once wrote in one of his books (Tanganyika Cichlids in their natural habitat???) that even though the majority of their stomach content contains vegetable matter (in the wild), what actually grow them are all the crustaceans, small snails and aquatic animals that lives and feeds on algae beds. That is where they get their Protein from.

You have answered one of your own questions here.

Secondly, i would like to hear from hobbyists who think all vegetarian or Spirulina based foods are the only foods that can be fed to Tropheus. What is the reason behind this?

Thirdly, i want hear from any one who thinks New Life Spectrum fish foods cannot be fed to Tropheus. Or by feeding NLS the Ts. will get bloat!!! Anyone?

I have two colonies one of which is fed exclusively on NLS and the other only gets Sera Flora and will not touch NLS. As previously posted it just comes down to what they have grown up eating. If you do for some reason want to change their diet then it is best to do so over a period of weeks to one month.

[Fox]

The 8ft tank at work has over 30 Tropheus, They get NLS & Sera Flora, They have been doing fine with no signs of bloat.
They spawn and leave the fry alone, When they are big enough they join the colony.

[electricmellow]

from my experience i've only observed my bulu point and duboisi kill their fry, not eat them.

my WC kasanga's on the other hand simply ignore any of the fry that were released into the display tank.

i feed only NLS. why? bcos they seem to like it, and i cant b bothered having a huge variety of food

[gibbs]

NLS is great for both carnivores and herbivores. The fish may eat their own fry in the aquarium but in the wild it is said that this rarely happens.
Over feeding in most cases is the issue as well as a sudden change in diet

[Cicolid]

My experience so far.

72 x 24 x 18 with 25 Local Bred Duboisi - breeding regularly
72 x 24 x 18 with 27 Local Bred Orange Bemba - breeding regularly
72 x 24 x 18 with 23 Wild Caught Chaitika's - now started breeding.
48 x 24 x 18 with 20 Local Bred Ikola - Had one small batch & hopefully more to come.

All the tanks have limestone rocks covering the back wall, with many rocks having heaps of holes etc for cover.

With the species that are breeding all the fry are left in with the adults until they reach about 4cm, then tanks are stripped & all fry/juvies removed.
We haven't noticed any deaths of fry apart from the last time we stripped the Duboisi tank we found 3 fry that had recently died. This was probably due to me removing all the rocks & they had nowhere to hide.

All species are fed the same...OSI Spirulina flakes, NLS 3mm & Thera +, with juvies having 1mm Grow.
We have noticed that most of the fry/juvies will graze the rocks, but not many adults do it.

The only deaths we have had that we know of is from fighting & they are all adults & usually females.

I am not saying that what we do is the only way to go.......... but it works for us.

Cheers
Col

[waruna]

All species are fed the same...OSI Spirulina flakes, NLS 3mm & Thera +, with juvies having 1mm Grow.

Hey Col, i don't know of many people who feed their Ts. the 3mm pellet, how long have you been feeding them this for? A 2mm NLS Medium fish formula will be available within weeks and i think this will be much better suited for adults :-)

Thanks for all the feed back, keep them coming!

[waruna]

They spawn and leave the fry alone, When they are big enough they join the colony.

Interesting, when mine (Moliro) spawned for the first time only one survived, had lots of rock/hiding places. I saw a few but they slowly disappeared one by one, the one that survived grew at an incredibly slow rate because it was scared to come and feed. After that i always stripped the females (WC Ilangi and Moliro). I always thought they got eaten....!

How many survived from a single spawn?

Cheers.

[daci]

my experience:

ALL feed NLS CF

- F1 Ilangi --> milk
- WC Florescent Yellow Rainbow Chilambo --> spit
- Moliro --> milk
- Kilpili --> milk
- Ikola --> spit
- bulu --> spit
- Dubs --> spit
- WC Kasanga --> spit
- Bemba --> spit

bet ya...I am probably using more NLS CF more than most in Perth and wondering if you could give me some DISCOUNT Waruna?

[Cicolid]

Hi Waruna,

I have been using 3mm pellets since I have been keeping Tropheus, but only when they are about 8cm in length.

It will be good to have the choice of 2mm pellets now.

Col

[kiitsch]

good information to know

[waruna]

my experience:

ALL feed NLS CF

- F1 Ilangi --> milk
- WC Florescent Yellow Rainbow Chilambo --> spit
- Moliro --> milk
- Kilpili --> milk
- Ikola --> spit
- bulu --> spit
- Dubs --> spit
- WC Kasanga --> spit
- Bemba --> spit

bet ya...I am probably using more NLS CF more than most in Perth and wondering if you could give me some DISCOUNT Waruna?

G'day Daci, WOW! So if i want to find some Ts. now i know whom to contact huh???! Sorry we don't supply to the public, but if you send me a PM and let me know how much you buy each time i'm more than happy to talk to all my retailers and get a good price for you. That is the best i can do, i'm sure you understand:-).

Thanks Col.

A very good point from Craig, if they could they'd eat their own tails.. so much for being vegetarians huh??! lol

[waruna]

Another thread i started on the same topic:-)

http://www.aceforums...showtopic=45175

[adrian]

Hi all, just to let you know that this refers to my colony of tropheus orange bemba. I lost 10 orange bemba over a period of 2 weeks. When i bought the NLS i was feeding it to my Ikola with no problem at all. My friend has also been feeding it to her Moliro and Duboisi with the same result. I then bought a colony of young orange bemba. I was told by the breeder not to use the NLS as it will cause bloat and that he had lost over half his colony using the product. I thought that he was wrong as the wholesaler had asured my friend that it was fine for vegetarian tropheus. I took the guy's home and started feeding all my fish on NLS after about two weeks i found a couple of the orange bemba dead. Then i found a couple more dead. I tested all my water parameters and found that they were fine. I then started looking at the dead fish more closely and then asked for some advice. I was told that they had bloat, I then started treatment with DMZ over the next two weeks i lost a total of ten fish. I have changed their diet back to the Sera flora and granugreen with the fish regaining their health. Over the past three weeks i have spoken to a number of people and they have said that it is the NLS that had caused the problem and that it is too rich in protien and the gut of the fish cannot cope.
I have spoken to a number of LFS proprieters and have been told that they will not feed them the NLS as it may be fine with most colonies but there is the odd one that it will have devastating effects on.
I have also been told that a few of the people who are making comments on this thread and are saying that they feed solely NLS to their Tropheus are not telling the truth. From what i have been told they have lost whole colonies feeding the NLS to their fish and then they have bought in more and tried to again feeding the NLS with the same result again. In the end I got told that they too have gone back to the sera flora and granugreen for thier general feeding with only one feed a week of the NLS.
The argument is not in the fact that the NLS is not a good product the argument is in the fact that the wholesaler had said that it was fine for all tropheus and this clearly not the case.
Please tell your clients that if you are going to feed your fish NLS and the fish are used to a low protien diet then caution should be advised and that it should be slowly introduce with their existing food.
When you spend hundreds of dollars buying a product and being told that it is fine for the fish that you are buying it for you expect that what your being told is the truth.
I have lost 10 fish because of bad advice from one of your retailers. Please advise your retailers that they should be more cautious with their advice next time.

Kind regards Adrian

[CCA001]

I have Been Keeping Duboisi "MASWA" and Orange Bembas for a little bit now and this is what i have found.

Maybe we can post this same thread on Tropheus Fanatics see what a few of them have to say on this matter aswell.

After reading up alot before i started keeping these fish i found that they are 90% vegetarians hence why there mouths are designed the way they are for grazing algae. I have watched the DVD i THINK its called Cichlid Feeding behaviors by Ad Konings and it goes into all the different types of mouth designs and what and why, they are designed in the way they were, for different species of fish.

Tropheus in this dvd were said to have been NEARLY SOLELY algae grazers.

Anyway back to my tropheus i have tried numerous times getting my tropheus to cope with this great product by only feeding it to them once a week, as when i was feeding them it every second day i was loosing to many to bloat. I stopped feeding and treated them accordingly and went back to Sera Flora.

I have since stopped feeding NLS and give them Sera Flora every second day and algae pellets once a week, since going back to this routine i have lost none. I think the protein content in it is just a little to high for them. I think maybe Spectrum should look at making a Tropheus food like the seperate Discus one that is available.

This is just my observation not trying to bag this product as with ALOT of tanks , i feed all my cichlids on the NLS and have GREAT results with them.

Just my thought on this only and is my opinion

[dazzabozza]

Please tell your clients that if you are going to feed your fish NLS and the fish are used to a low protein diet then caution should be advised and that it should be slowly introduce with their existing food.

I think this plays a major part in whether or not you will experience losses. With T's and other sensitive/finicky species it's always a good idea to find out what their feeding regime was (in particular the types of food) and continue this after relocation. Out of all the cichlids I've kept I find that T's succumb to stress induced death more than any other.

As far as my colonies (dubs & moliro) are concerned they were fed on NLS THERA+ 3mm when I bought them. I've slowly introduced NLS cichlid, grow (mainly for smaller fish like leptosoma that share the tanks) and HBH 8 veggie into their diets.

IMO the most important change I have made is to feed more sparingly. I've had losses of all types of fish when over-feeding pellets as I believe they gorge themselves and later get digestion/intestinal issues. The large amount of food also put more load on my filters and increased the chance of ammonia/nitrite being present for longer periods or overly high nitrates that I could not maintain quickly enough via water changes. Most of my fish only get fed once every 2 days on average, juvie tanks more often. The side effect being less breeding Once I get the colonies into a larger water volume then I'll increase food intake and hopefully see an increase in jiggy jig

Something else to consider is the presence of a bad bacteria that your bemba had never been in contact with prior. That with the combination of stress from moving and change of diet are enough to trigger losses.


Hope this helps.


Dazza

[highlucks]

I then bought a colony of young orange bemba. I was told by the breeder not to use the NLS

I have changed their diet back to the Sera flora and granugreen with the fish regaining their health

Adrian, sounds like you should have taken the advice of the person that was feeding them before you, as apposed to second hand advice from a friend.

I have also been told that a few of the people who are making comments on this thread and are saying that they feed solely NLS to their Tropheus are not telling the truth. From what i have been told they have lost whole colonies feeding the NLS to their fish and then they have bought in more and tried to again feeding the NLS with the same result again. In the end I got told that they too have gone back to the sera flora and granugreen for thier general feeding with only one feed a week of the NLS.

NLS is a great product, which my colony of 30 Ikola absolutely love and I have not had a single loss in that tank yet. As for people lying about what they feed their fish...why would they bother, what would they have to gain. Seems like the source of your information knows more about our own feeding regimes than we do.

[Cthompson]

The first and most over reaching and basic information to understand is knowing what the term “vegetarian” means when used with Tropheus. A vegetarian Tropheus is not like a cow or horse that can exist on grass and hay. African cichlids are opportunistic feeders that have evolved and eked out an ecological existence that has enabled them to find the bulk of their food from a particular way of feeding. In this case it is with feeding off the aufwuchs. This is a term that describe the algae and all the organisms that live in the algae. If all they got was green matter they would starve to death.

A vegetarian and carnivore have evolved to find their food sources from their particular ecological niches, and both have different ways of dealing with their food once it has been eaten. Interestingly, both have the same requirements for protein to support their life. Tropheus have a long gut that processes as much protein as they can gleam from their food, but carnivores have shorter guts as less processing is required to obtain the same required amount of protein.

Compare the ingredient list on Sera Flora and you will see something along the lines of “fish meal” or words to that affect somwhere down in their list. This acknowledges the “vegetarians” need for meat. Now look at NLS ingredient list and you will see that the meat protein is first and from memory second in the list. There was an old TV advertisement where the catch faze was “oils an’t oils Sal”. In this case it is “proteins an’t proteins”. Some commercial dry foods use chicken blood and feather as their sources of protein – this is known as a poor source of protein for fish as it is not in a form easily digestible by them. I’m not sure but I expect it will be tied in with the fact that it is a land based protein. NLS’s first and second from memory is whole salmon and krill (please correct that if I remembered it wrong). This is a highly digestible form of protein, and Africans will have no problems with handling it, regardless of how they source their protein in the wild.

I have been feeding my Tropheus for years on NLS, though I occasionally feed sushi nori sheets for my entertainment as well as NLS stable wafers for the same reason. I have no need feed this extra food, I do it because it is soooo entertaining. I have no need to lie about this.

There is the “old” saying that you have to feed a variety of foods. This was once true, and it was true because all commercially available dry foods were deficient in one or more ways and feeding several brands overcame these deficiencies. In addition, unfortunately most if not all these foods had/have cheap fillers that were and are used to bulk up the food, that have no nutritional benefit and may be harmful after long use.

NLS is a variety in one container, and has no deficiencies which is why it can be feed equally well to what we call “vegetarians” and “carnivores”. The goal of a Tropheus keeper is to feed the appropriate type of protein and NLS does that without cheap and nasty fillers.

That is the reason why feeding exclusively NLS is better than feeding NLS and brand “X” as brand X will have cheap fillers and all the more likely have poor or inappropriate forms of protein. I have no doubt that Tropheus and other Africans will do exceeding well and better if feed an exclusive diet of NLS. If you feed NLS and brand X you are lowering the overall dietary intake of the fish.

In regards to NLS causing bloat. The basic cause or catalyst for bloat is stress. Stress can come in many forms and I assume readers of this will know that some very basic ones can be; when fish are newly obtained or suddenly changing diets – even if the change in both cases is for the better. Did the person who mentioned their fish got bloat when changing to NLS do it in one fell swoop? AND when they first got their fish? This would be a classic way of causing bloat and is not the fault of the food but how the change was brought about. Pablo Tepoot I have seen written claims that NLS can be swapped over without weening, I personally wouldn’t take the chance.

Before NLS there was NO pellet food that could be feed to Tropheus without soaking. There were huge internet debates that this couldn’t be done…

Before NLS the was NO commercial dry food that could be feed to “vegetarians” AND “carnivores”…

Before NLS there was NO commercially produced dry food that could be feed exclusively…..

Now the arguments and debates have moved on because the above was proven. Now the discussions are different but the same learning curve is going on.

I would respectively suggest that further research be done on fish nutrition, then take that knowledge to the back of fish food containers. The difficulty here is that there will be "old" information out there that will be written as current, there will be missinformation and information supplied by individuals with vested (read "hidden") interests.

I am a hobbyist, I make no money, nor ever have from selling NLS. I speak highly of it as I believe, through research and years of use that there is no other dry food on the market that can deliver what NLS can. I will be very glad when this is not the case.

With regard to Tropheus eating or killing their young;

They can do both, and in addition leave the young alone. It can be dependant on a number of things;

• Size difference between fry and the larger fish- the larger the adults the more potential for them to leave the young alone. But that can be dependant;
• How well fed the adults are – a lot of T keepers in fear of bloat, think to feed less is a valid strategy (and it can be true as if even too much NLS is fed bloat can result). What they tend to do is go overboard and adult fish are too hungry and they would eat their own tail if they could catch it.
• Number of places for the fry to hide.
• Size of the tank
• Size of the tank in relation to the number of places for fry to hide.
• The biggest predator on fry is older fry as they can get into the hiding places that adults can’t.

In essence, an appropriate sized tank with appropriate places for fish to hide that have been feed appropriate amounts with only one generation of fry at a time will probably see most if not all the fry survive. The same tank will see less fry survive the more older fry there are growing up – the bigger the fry (adults) the more the fry become safe again.

I have seen fry just killed, I have had fry disappear (eaten) and I have had fry grow up in their birth tank and in their turn have fry.

[waruna]

NLS’s first and second from memory is whole salmon and krill (please correct that if I remembered it wrong).

Whole Antarctic Krill meal, Whole Herring meal.....


G'Day Adrian,

Over the past three weeks i have spoken to a number of people and they have said that it is the NLS that had caused the problem and that it is too rich in protien and the gut of the fish cannot cope.

NLS

Crude Protein 36%
Crude Fat 5%
Crude Fiber 5%
Moisture (max) 10%
Ash (max) 9%

Sera Flora

Crude Protein 40%
Crude Fat 5.9%
Crude Fiber 3.4%
Moisture 7%
Ash 12.2%

Now please tell me which one is more richer in Protein? Comparing the fiber and Ash percentages are you seriously going to try and convince me that Sera is much better digested than NLS?

I have also been told that a few of the people who are making comments on this thread and are saying that they feed solely NLS to their Tropheus are not telling the truth.

Are you calling these people liars? Who told you this?

From what i have been told they have lost whole colonies feeding the NLS to their fish and then they have bought in more and tried to again feeding the NLS with the same result again. In the end I got told that they too have gone back to the sera flora and granugreen for thier general feeding with only one feed a week of the NLS.

Such practices will cause bloat, i'd stick with one food whether it be Sera or NLS.. definitely wouldn't change their diet like this.

The argument is not in the fact that the NLS is not a good product the argument is in the fact that the wholesaler had said that it was fine for all tropheus and this clearly not the case.

It is fine for ALL Tropheus but you have to follow a few basic guidelines when it comes to changing their diet. This should be done over a period of time, should feed the correct pellet size, start with a small quantity and gradually increase the amount etc etc. These are basic fish husbandry.

Please tell your clients that if you are going to feed your fish NLS and the fish are used to a low protien diet then caution should be advised and that it should be slowly introduce with their existing food.
When you spend hundreds of dollars buying a product and being told that it is fine for the fish that you are buying it for you expect that what your being told is the truth.
I have lost 10 fish because of bad advice from one of your retailers. Please advise your retailers that they should be more cautious with their advice next time.

If I'm not mistaken you and your friend bought a bucket and went halves in it, you simply did not purchase the product. Your friend had asked the retailer if it was ok to be fed to Ts. and the retailer said yes, which is correct. I'm very sorry for your loss but you should have done a bit more research in to changing their diet and not just follow your friend.


Cheers.