137 replies to this topic

[tranced]

word

[Den]

2. Are there any natural central Americans in the Aust hobby that have been wiped out by flowerhorns?

The most obvious impact is on the Trimac species as this is the main parent species that many turn out looking like. I have also seen synspillum looking fish sold as a "type" of flowerhorn

Regarding the Trimac, I own 5 of them, I purchased them from 3 different fish stores a few months back.

Is the problem facing the trimac related to the flowerhorn or is the real problem related to very few people wishing to keep them due to their agressive behaviour and large size? are people not breeding trimacs due to the fact most LFS dont want them or wont pay anything for them? and is that the same problem facing most central Americans? is the low price and demand for central americans due to the additional fact that most hobbiests are infatuated with the rift lake craze, always chasing the new malawi and/or tang species?

One of the real problems I see facing central americans is the fact most hobbiests are jaming their tanks full of rift lake cichlids. Almost every flowerhorn keeper I have met also keeps pure central americans, these people are the key to ensuring that natural central americans are kept in tact.

You need only look at the posts on this forum to see the club and its forum should be aptly re-named to; The Perth Rift Lake Fish Society.

Cheers
Den

[tranced]

dont pretend u dont like being in the minority

[dave06]

In support of Den's comment (above) - I've got a pair of Trimacs that breed very frequently, I use the fry as feeders.
No shops want them - i cant even give them away !!!!

I also agree - all the flowerhorn keepers i know in Perth, also keep Pure Central Americans.
It is obvious that the Centrals are not as popular and certianly not in vogue - so perhaps us CA hobbiests (including Flowerhorns) should be encouraged as we are doing our bit in preserving and sustaining CA populations in Perth / Aus.

I wonder how many people that are 'so concerned' about hybridisation and losing species are actually doing anything to address this alleged problem ???
Or do they just like arguing and misinforming new members on this forum ?

[Den]

Thanks Dave for confirming, though its obvious to me when I visit LFS and see whats in the tanks and read the classifieds and cichlid discussions on the forums whats being bred and traded, others seem unable to quantify the evidence, perhaps they arent paying close enough attention to detail?

The only African rift lake I am aware of where hundreds of cichlids are already extinct or critically endangered and in urgent need of help is Lake victoria, where the introduction of nile perch and habitat destruction is causing massive problems, but unfortunately all the purist conservationists arent coming to the rescue, why? lack of marketing? whats wrong with Lake Victorian cichlids? not worth breeding because you cant sell them right? since most malawis are more colourful.

When it comes to the line the hobby is all about marketing and $ numbers, when someone breeds a fancy discus, angel fish or popular colourful cichlid and sells them its fine, but someone selling flowerhorns correctly labelled is deemed by some as unethical, is this a double standard?

OK sorry I broke my word and came back, you can all blame Kieran for roping me back in by directly asking me a question.

Cheers
Den

[Fish Antics]

I am sorry; again you are pointing to your opinion and observations as fact and submit as evidence. Yet you dismiss others experience requesting proof. As mentioned already a simple Google search will bring you countless pages of supporting arguments.
Are you able to offer scientific proof that Flowerhorn's benefit the natural breeds, and that they do not cause or have the potential to cause wide spread damage to those breeds used to develop them. After all it is the commonly held belief of many thousands of aquarists with far more expertise than myself.
I eagerly await the proof to show where all these people have made a critical error.

A large number of Lake Victorian species are extinct or under threat. Some in fact may only exist in the hobby. Another important reason to try and keep these species protected. We are not fortunate enough in this country to have a large number of species; however we do have a few which are relatively plentiful. They will not be as popular as Malawi’s mainly due to their more aggressive nature but they do have their enthusiast’s following.
The clubs new breeding competition encourages breeding of endangered species with bonus points for species listed as at risk or endangered.
Marketability will always play an important role if fish breeding, which is why Flowerhorns exist in the first place. As a club of enthusiasts we try and look to the preservation of the species not the monetary value as the important issue.

[Den]

Are you able to offer scientific proof that Flowerhorn's benefit the natural breeds, and that they do not cause or have the potential to cause wide spread damage to those breeds used to develop them

Perhaps Im not explaining myself clearly enough, just like any hybrid flowerhorns certainly do have the potental to cause problems with the natural gene pool in the hobby, but is ignoring and censoring them the best way to deal with them?

My arguement is that;

1. I do not believe cichlid clubs can change or help the situation by ignoring this facet of the hobby.

2. I believe if cichlid clubs did accept flowerhorns as part of the cichlid hobby that it would allow cichlid clubs to exert some influence over this section of the hobby by offering guidelines that could help people to manage them responsibly.

3. Flowerhorns are different to unwanted hybrids because they are created with intent, various strains have and are still being developed which are desirable to a growing number of fish keepers.

4. A lift in the interest in Flowerhorns would also lift the interest in Central Americans and visa vera, evidence is available by looking at what fish people are keeping.

5. I believe Natural Central Americans are under threat not because of flowerhorns, but because there is little interest from hobbiests keeping natural central Americans. Logically if hobbiests wanted pure central Americans there would be a market for them, people would breed them and LFS would stock them in numbers - just like what rift lake cichlids are currently experiencing.

6. Evidence of whats being bred and kept is easily visible by looking at the various internet classifieds and LFS, most of the fish being talked about, bred and traded for a good $$ return are rift lake cichlids, its easy to see thats going on, there is evidence you just have to look and make a few little sums!

No hobbiest interest in a species = no demand = no more breeding = no more of that species in the hobby.

It has nothing to do with flowerhorns.

Cheers
Den

[Fish Antics]

The Topic of Hybrids are not being ignored or censored, as in the case of this discussion. It is only the sale and promotion that is not allowed in the club or its forum. They are not being ignored, just not encouraged. By encouraging people to keep the many wide ranging species of cichlids and educating them we hope to encourage people on the benefits of keeping natural species and through learning about the potential damage that Hybrids of any type not just flowerhorns can cause avoid them.
Any Hybrid is unwanted to get mixed up with natural bloodlines; all have the potential to cause problems. I understand that specific varieties are attractive and highly sought after, however there are many that do not measure up to the grade, even within spawns and these can look like one of the parental species. These are the ones that are the biggest risk. And before you suggest it, no people do not always cull the undesirable fish.

The interest in Central and South American cichlids is affected by the same market forces that affect all other fish. There are trends with ups and downs. There are periods that Malawi’s are more popular, then Tangs are the flavour of the month and then Americans have their surge in popularity. It is a cycle which we are all aware off.
Americans have a beauty and character all their own. They are not as bright and colourful as the Africans and have their own special requirements with regards to space and territories.
Americans do have one other characteristic which also affects their marketability. They have huge spawnings. One person breeds a popular species and can supply the whole market.
The market for Americans will not grow because of the presence of Flowerhorns, blood parrots or other hybrid species.

These Hybrid fish have been developed purely to supply a lucrative market for fish that have culturally desirable markings and colouring. They fetch high prices for fish that are desirable. New species are added to the mix to produce desirable characteristics. Often these non related species are bred by using hormones and other artificial techniques to produce new forms.
All for the mighty dollar.......

[Den]

Tony I partly agree with nearly all what you say in your last post except for the last paragraph. Not because it isnt true, but because you try to demonize flowerhorn breeders by suggesting that flowerhorn breeders and keepers are just out there to make a dollar, when in fact every new fish gets into the hobby through people out to make a dollar, from breeders to collectors to wholesalers to retailers.

Im sure the fish you breed in your fish room are not handed out for free and Im also sure you get payed to work in the fish store, so dont forget while Im sure you enjoy this hobby you are also motivated by financial incentive no different to a Flowerhorn enthusiast, the only difference between you and flowerhorn enthusiasts is that you prefer to work with natural species.

What can make some flowerhorns very expensive is their individual uniqueness, unlike natural fish which spawn almost all the same like clones, each flowerhorn is as individual as a peice of artwork. Some artwork can be expensive and some cheap. Thats why a "natural" Trimac sells for $10 and a high quality Red Dragon "trimac flowerhorn" sells for $700-$1000+.

Cheers
Den

[dazzabozza]

What can make some flowerhorns very expensive is their individual uniqueness, unlike natural fish which spawn almost all the same like clones, each flowerhorn is as individual as a peice of artwork. Some artwork can be expensive and some cheap. Thats why a "natural" Trimac sells for $10 and a high quality Red Dragon "trimac flowerhorn" sells for $700-$1000+.

Hey Den

After reading your last paragraph I'm curious at to what you believe is the "intent" and driving force behind FHs (including when they were first created and the breeding that occurs today), other than what I have already bolded?

The intent is what I believe to be threat to our naturally occurring species being lost in the hobby. And you've pointed out a lot the CAs are getting lost due to lack of interest, perhaps because there's more demand for "trophies/artwork pieces"?

Also the text I have in orange really highlights how extreme the "naturalist" hobbyists differ from the "line breeders" and "hybrid creators / breeders". The naturalists strive to maintain a good representation of what is found in the wild. The latter strive to create something different / out of the ordinary.


Daz

[Den]

After reading your last paragraph I'm curious at to what you believe is the "intent" and driving force behind FHs (including when they were first created and the breeding that occurs today), other than what I have already bolded?

We created a thread here that went into some detail about this subject, however the PCS committee deleted it. I would be delighted to share that information with you here but you would need to change the T&Cs and end the current censorship, alternatively I can direct you to other sites which permit and encourage such discussion.

The intent is what I believe to be threat to our naturally occurring species being lost in the hobby. And you've pointed out a lot the CAs are getting lost due to lack of interest, perhaps because there's more demand for "trophies/artwork pieces"?

Yes thats possible, but if competing for hobbiests tank space is the problem then the biggest threat to central americans are rift lake cichlids, which dominate about 85%+ of cichlid hobbiests tanks, how do I get that % figure? easy, read the posts on all the cichlid club forums and make a few sums!

Cheers
Den

[tranced]

your logic is flawed, your assuming that

a- the people active on this forum are representative of the entire cichlid hobby
b- that every person on this forum makes an equal number of post about their fish.

[Den]

your logic is flawed, your assuming that

a- the people active on this forum are representative of the entire cichlid hobby
b- that every person on this forum makes an equal number of post about their fish.

a. Firstly I said all the cichlid forums, I am a member of most Australian cichlid forums.
b. Are you suggesting that rift lake enthusiasts talk more about their fish than other hobbiests?

I think the average minded person understands and agrees with the logic I have highlighted

Cheers
Den

[tranced]

a- my point still stands
b- this could very well be the case!

[Den]

a- my point still stands
b- this could very well be the case!

a. please explain?
b. please explain?

Cheers
Den

[tranced]

your sample is not representative of the population you make assumptions about. its not that hard really

[Den]

Hi Tranced , this will be my last comment to you because I dont want to spam this thread, but when you see that most of the classifieds and discussion revolves around rift lake cichlids across cichlid societies around the country, you can be pretty sure thats what most people are keeping. If you are unconvinced, start counting cichlids at LFS and see what percentages of fish you get, they tend to keep fish in proportion to what the market is buying.

Cheers
Den

[tranced]

yes, doing a survey of LFS stock would give you some decent data i would totally agree with that.