52 replies to this topic

[ruffaz]

what are the rocks in the mbuna tank are they minerial based at all

[Graeme76]

As stated in post #36, the rocks are granite & they have been used in my tanks before with no problems. There is one small piece of limestone but that has also been used in one of my previous rift lake set up with no problems.

This exact set up was a Tang tank up until about 6 months ago. The Tangs were in there for about 2yrs with no problems at all. If there was going to be a problem with any of the decor or about how stable I keep the tank, then the Tangs would certainly have shown it to me.

The facts are very simple, fish from that store quickly develop problems while fish from other stores do not. That rules out any environmental causes & leaves only the variables. In this case the only variable is the store that the fish are bought from.

[Den]

Tankmates are 3 Electric Yellows (purchased 5 & 2 died within 4 days), 4 Mainganos (purchased 6 & 2 died within 2 weeks), 4 Rustys all purchased from sponsor store & with no problems, 3 x Synodontis Multipunctatus purchased from sponsor store & with no problems, 1 x Common Bristlenose purchased from sponsor store & with no problems

The tanks look pretty nice, and I think youve eliminated alot of the common environmental causes, such as water quality and temperature, decor looks OK, lots of hiding places etc. Looking at the species, and the fact that some are surviving from each batch, its hard to completely pin the problem, if the fish were diseased then why didnt they all die?, why didnt it spread to your other fish? why did it take some so long to die?

Theres so many other questions, like what size were the fish being added?, what tank mates were in the tank and what where their sizes? I also note that the surviving fish list are much hardier than the ones you've had problems with, thats just my opinion, but I can say over the years Ive kept all the species you've mentioned.

Also Im not personally into long aclimitization processes such as the drip menthod, I think it causes to much stress and Im not sure whats happening to the water when its mixing so slowly and pretty much stagnating in the bucket with bag water which can be seriously nasty stuff. I know some people swear by the drip method, personally Ive tried it a few times and I found the fish did not come through or adjust as quickly as the ones I just float for a few minutes to get the temps similar, and then release straight into the tank.

I use the logic, imagine your in a burning house, the smoke is stopping you from breathing and the heat is burning your skin, whats best? to slowly leave the burning house? or to get out of it asap and into fresh air? well imagine a fish bag full of ammonia and you have a fish in a similar situation, its struggling to breath and the ammonia is burning it, you want to get it out of that water which is harming it asap.

Depending on the tank the fish I aquired came out of; if it looked trustworthy then ideally I will just open the bag under water and let the fish swim out on its own, but sometimes I will net the fish out of the bag and ditch the water if its too dirty or if they came from a dodgy tank.

What about distances, is this store closer or farther to travel from your house? because adding distance plus using drip method IMO is a very bad idea. It could be also possible that the water in this shop is not as good quality and with the drip method added is creating problems for you.

Cheers
Den

[Peckoltia]

I agree with Den, I think drip acclimitization is a pretty flawed practice. If the basic water conditions are similar, what is the need? Float the bag for a few minutes get the temps fairly close and let the fish go.

You seem to be quite fixated on keeping the fish at a decent temp, which is good practice. I personally would be more concerned about dissolved oxygen (DO) in a bucket full of fish for 4 hours. I am aware that the drip method would provide some oxygenation to the bucket water, but not much. When I was studying aquaculture, we logged DO in holding containers full of snapper. I was amazed to say the least at how quickly DO levels drop. Maybe something to keep in mind if you are going to persist with the drip method.

I would probably advise you to carefully check the fish your are purchasing before you buy them. Fish that are going to die in the next day or two will generally not look the greatest.

Alex

[Graeme76]

I used to do the float the bag method many years ago & that's when I had trouble introducing more delicate species such as GBR's so I ditched that method in favour of the drip, which has worked well for me for a very long time now. Each person has different experiences with acclimating though so it's an each to thier own area IMO. I just use the method that has worked best for me over the last 10yrs or so I've been keeping fish. Personally I don't think DO would be an issue. There's a big difference between a 1000gal tank with 300 snapper in it & a 20lt tub with 5 rather small fish. Also I make sure the siphon line is up near the top of the bucket & that the water is dripping onto the surface of the water in the bucket so that it creates maximum surface disturbance.

I'm afraid I don't get the logic of the surviving fish being hardier than the fish that died. Out of the main species that died, Electric Yellows, Mainganos & Duboulyai Rainbows, there were also specimens which survived, bought at the exact same time from the same location. All fish I buy are studied closely in the tanks at the store for several minutes before I commit to the purchase & I watch like a hawk when the fish are being netted so I can make sure I get the exact fish that I want. All the fish appear healthy & in good condition when they are purchased. I also don't see where it is taking a long time for the fish to develop problems. The first Maingano died within two days of purchase. The first Electric Yellow within 5 days. The other deaths occured within a week of the first death of each species. The Rainbows went the exact same way. The fish develop different symptoms to each other, even within the one species & the syptoms don't spread to other fish within my tanks, so I can't say that the fish are affected by a certain disease at the store.

For the mbuna tank it already had the Synos in it, they are about 7cm & the BN which is about 10cm, then the Electric Yellows were added, they were 5-7cm. About 2 weeks after the yellows went in (& after 2 had died) I got the 4 Rustys (7-8cm) from a store that is much further away from home & introduced them. Another 2 weeks after that I got the Mainganos, which were the same size as the Yellows & they went the exact same way. The Yellows & Mainganos came from a store that is a 10min drive from home, the rustys came from a store that is 45min to 1hr drive from home as did replacement Electric Yellows & Mainganos which I have had no problems with. The same thing happened with the Rainbows, which came from the local store & were approx 8-10cm when purchased & I would hardly put Rainbows on the delicate list. IME they are one of the toughest fish you can get. Yes the tank was fully cycled when the fish went into it. I had actually just removed all of my Tangs aside from the Synos & traded them on the Yellows & some NLS. Tangs are much more delicate than Malawis & I never had any problem with them. Funnily enough they came from a different store to the problem shop.

Anyway I think the easiest solution is simply for me not to buy at the particular store I'm experiencing problems with & to resign myself to the hour drive to a different store. Going by the PM's I've recieved I'm actually not the only one to experience this problem with this store, I'm just the only one that has said anything about it in public.

Thanks to everyone for thier replies & theories. The feedback has been much appreciated.

[tranced]

have you ever tested nitrates of the bag water? sometimes going from very high nitrate to very low nitrate will be enough of a shock to kill

[Peckoltia]

I know the store you are having trouble with, as I PM'd you.

You live in Dianella, an hour drive is not needed. Try Malaga aquariums, wouldn't even take you 10minutes from dianella. Great store with knowledgable staff and a great selection of healthy fish. Staff will be more then happy to help you with any problems you have.

[Arcturus]

I would hardly put Rainbows on the delicate list. IME they are one of the toughest fish you can get.

They are tough once established, but surprisingly delicate to move

Being caught and introduced into a new tank is a stressful time for any fish, but especially for skittish fish like rainbows - it really freaks them out.

I wont speak to the other points you've been talking about, but I think it's unnecessary and counter-productive to leave the rainbows sitting in a bucket for 4 hours, it really is just going to stress them.

+1 to what Peckoltia said - Malaga Aquariums has the best range of rainbows, plus Kevin is the Rainbow fish god

[ruffaz]

+2 to what Peckoltia said

I have read and studied problems about isolated communities overseas catching wild fish for the aquia trade and then exporting them, A couple of the methods were cyanide and blasting.

Now it was noted that the attrition rate was approx 60% but buy the time they landed in the lfs in australia it was 35 %, and once they were in the home it was hard to guage but out of the 35% that were sold 50 % died or didnot make it.

As there was a lot of stress invloved and the market turned them over quickly now australia placed a lot of test once this was found out buy doing autopsies (spelling) of imported fish and it came to a complete stop but im just wondering now if maybee some have started to slip through or side line importing practises have taken place ?

and this is why this perticular store is having this issue

[Den]

I guess we all have different experiences when it comes to fish, Im no rainbow expert, but I did have about 30 given to me 4 years ago of several different species and there is no way I would rate them tougher than synos, bristlenose and rusties, which was the point I was making the fish you seem to have problems with were the more delicate of the lot, except the 2 mainganos you lost, they are tough but they can get very agro with each other so that could be another explanation why you lost a few of them.

cyanide and blasting

As far as Im aware this was related to the marine hobby. The 1990's was a terrible time for saltwater fish keeping worldwide, Im out of touch but from what I last heard cyanide and blasting has mostly been stopped about 10years ago thanks to initiatives like MACS. LFS didnt give a stuff about the environment, they were having a big party, they got to sell bright fish that died withing weeks and customers kept coming back for more.

It kinda makes me sick when the purists sit on a pedastool thinking the hobby has some kind of conservation value, when it fact our hobby is completely negative for the environment in every aspect other than it can teach some people to value animals and the environment but the irony is we destroy the environment with our hobby while trying to instill opposite values in people minds.

lol, sorry again off topic.


Cheers
Den

[not_nats]

Just to butt in on your convo here I have noticed that the live ornamental fish industry thrives on turnover (as all businesses have too) and is therefore generally not interested in saving fish but is geared towards replacing them at yours and the fishes expense.
I am surprised at the extreme lack of knowledge from some fish stores who claim to be experts (has been drips under pressure) and IMO are definately no where near, to the other extreme that ignorance sells more fish as the less you know doesnt kill you just the fish and this too bad never mind approach is and can destroy the hobby(except for all the sponsors of coarse) I have recently seen black ghost knife fish in store as four for whatever $ at the end of the day you may sell more but how many will kill each other over territorial disputes my guess will be only one fish left no matter how long it takes thats the story
who cares we should
Anyway thats my two cents worth i'm outta here

[tranced]

but you see many people wont just keep replacing fish, they will get disheartened and simply decide that fish are 'not for them'. and there goes your future profits, as if that person was given decent advice and shown some of the passion that people have for keeping fish, who knows they could have later down the track have spent thousands of dollars and become another 'fish addict', generating alot more money for the business in the long term.

so i dont think any decent shop will be geared towards making people kill their fish to generate more sales. you seem to have a cynical view of the industry, have you ever worked in a lfs? have you ever even considered just how much specific knowledge is required to be a half decent lfs employee, and then you get paid peanuts for it. its not hard to see why some lfs cant find good staff. at the end of the day, the person buying the animal is responsible for its wellbeing, and in this day and age if you dont do your homework before buying a live animal with specialised care requirements your either lazy or plain stupid imo

[ruffaz]

^^^ most lfs i have been in to try and give the rite advise and when a customer seeems not interested in it and wonts to do things there way they still sell the fish or fishes knowin they will perish,to me that is a lack of morals however they are there to make money lets not forget that and they are businesses so they have to sell fish as much as the customer should no what they are geting them selfs in to it in the best intrest of the store to turn over stock.

lfs can never and will never win to keep on going customers happy you have to have fresh and new livestock all the time and that means turn over sell sell sell but when fish die from lack of respect,water conditions over stocking terratorial behaviour etc they get blamed for not giving the rite advise how many times have you been in a shop when there is not a lot of staff to serve you and you rush to get the fish then get home, you may not no what its special requirments are and the staff has not had the time to deal with you like they would to to let you know what you need to do because there is a lot of customer breathing down your neck then to top it of you have to price match wich means cuting cost its a double edged sword for the lfs.