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Marbled Peacocks - Hybrids? Evidence = Probably Not


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#1 Den

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 08:13 PM

Hi All

I've seen a few discussions on the net about marbled peacocks, people are accusing them of being hybrids without a scrap of evidence, and after a bit of research I cant find a hint of evidence showing they could be hybrids, in fact everything points in the opposite direction, that they are likely to be a genetic variant created through inbreeding.

They are accused by some of being a peacock crossed with either marbled zebras and/or trewavasae, but these fish have very different shapes, so if they were hybrids we should see some variable fry sharing features from both species, and considering the accused fish are all from different genus groups, creating a fish that breeds true from crossing these different genera would be difficult, and probably impossible, though would need to check this with a scientific expert in fish genetics.

If you have bred them can you share what the fry looked like? did the fry grow true to form when it comes to head and body shape? i.e. did the fry look same shape as the parents? obviously the colours are variable, but its the shape that will give it away.

What we should see if it was a hybrid
If it was a hybrid then we should be seeing some fish that share mixed features with both species used to form the cross, overseas breeders could be culling to avoid the fish that don't match peacock shape, but its unlikely because it wouldn't be a viable fish to breed if it was a hybrid that needed to be uniform peacock shape, because they would loose too many fish and culling would be too time consuming for such a cheap fish that breeds in low numbers per female.

Local breeders can also help by sharing wether they noticed any variance in the shape of the fry.

Take a note of the difference of the head and mouth shapes in particular, if these were hybrids you should see a percentage of fish showing mixed traits.

Marbled peacock

Marbled Metraclima/Zebra

Marbled Trewavasae


Why they are most likely a genetic varient
1. Thousands of marbled peacocks sold in the industry all seem to be of a uniform peacock shape, though different fish farms may have cultivated their own marbled strains through the use of selective breeding a specific peacock species different to other farms.

2. There are several or more blotched fish species(e.g. M. zebra and P. trewavasae) occurring naturally in the rift lakes so its highly possible that many species in the rift lakes carry recessive genes for marbled pattern from a common ancestor in the lake.

3. Marble pattern genes are locked away within many fish species and it seems to be unlocked through selective inbreeding, countless common species are available in the aquarium trade which are known to be non hybrids, all created through selective breeding of a single species.

Marbled convict cichlid

Marbled angel fish

Marbled livebearers such as guppies, platys and mollies


Flowerhorn breeders after more than 10years have been unable to create a fixed strain of hybrid, the hybrid fish throw a mix of fish of shapes, sizes colours and patterns completely ununiform, so to me the chances of the marbled peacock being a perfectly fixed hybrid strain is pretty slim to none. Overall the evidence available to me is that they are very unlikely to be a hybrid and are most likely to be a selectively bred genetic mutation, but it would help as discussed above if any locals have bred them and can share what the fry looked like.

Cheers
Den biggrin.gif

Edited by Den, 06 June 2011 - 08:40 PM.


#2 Fish Antics

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 08:31 PM

This is the kind of post I really enjoy seeing. This is exactly the reason why we should look into these things before acting. I have been researching Marbled/Tangerine and dragon blood peacocks for this reason. There is very little published evidence in either way. From speaking to many people in the trade, When they were first introduced many years ago they did show many of the traits you mentioned, however over the years of linebreeding this apparently has been fixed. I have also received some feedback that Tangerines were line breed from specific species, which I am also looking into.

#3 Den

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 08:37 PM

The peacock, zebra and trewasavase all come from a different genus, are there any examples in the hobby of a fixed strain coming from fish crossed/hybridised from different genera(genus)? I cant think of any? can anyone assist by presenting an example/s?

#4 Fish Antics

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 08:38 PM

I should also mention that the marbled pattern is common in certain species but not in others. There is no marbled peacocks in the wild, which does not mean that it could not have been a genetic mutation in aquarium strains!

#5 Den

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 08:42 PM

QUOTE
There is no marbled peacocks in the wild, which does not mean that it could not have been a genetic mutation in aquarium strains!
In addition to your comment, as I have poined out in my original post, there are many man made marbled fish in the hobby that are not found in the wild and are not hybrids, rather created through selective inbreeding and linebreeding of a single species.

Edited by Den, 06 June 2011 - 08:43 PM.


#6 Bowdy

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 08:43 PM

What about marbled Dimidiochromis compressiceps . They throw true fry and are a hybrid.
Just a thort I could be way wrong tho.

Edited by Bowdy, 06 June 2011 - 08:47 PM.


#7 Poncho

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 09:04 PM

You can cross two species of Aulonocara without zebras or Labeotropheus involved and it is still technically a hybrid. The thing that creates most doubt is that it has never been labelled with a species name.

Why wasn't it called a marbled Aulonocara jacobfriebergi (example), why just a marbled peacock? Same with all the albino trade named peacock varients out there.

Also, if it was a marbled recessive gene, wouldn't we find normal looking peacocks throwing marbleds out every now and again? Surely someone would have documented this.
I don't know - I need these types of questions answered properly before I could be 100% sure they weren't hybrids.

#8 Ronny

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 09:13 PM

Where were the Marbled Fenestratus pics Den tongue.gif


QUOTE (Poncho @ Jun 6 2011, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, if it was a marbled recessive gene, wouldn't we find normal looking peacocks throwing marbleds out every now and again? Surely someone would have documented this.



I like this point in particular and it makes even more important to hear from someone who breeds them.

Gonna be an interesting thread smile.gif


#9 gibbs

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 09:34 PM

QUOTE (Den @ Jun 6 2011, 08:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In addition to your comment, as I have poined out in my original post, there are many man made marbled fish in the hobby that are not found in the wild and are not hybrids, rather created through selective inbreeding and linebreeding of a single species.


Most of the marbled species in the hobby contain the marbled gene. To this date no Aulonocara has been documented as throwing a natural OB so it considered that Aulonocara don't contain this gene.

In regards to body shape, OB peacocks come in all shapes and sizes. Some long and slender others are staunch, so there shapes, size, base colour are all variable which isn't a good indication of a species purity. Like Poncho said, crossing in-genus is still creating a hybrid.

Den why don't contact Ad Konings or Dave Schumacher or Ed Martin on the matter. I think we all know the answer you will get but atleast it is from the horses mouth. Ad dives the Lake more than anyone so his input on the origins of the species will count more than any of ours.

#10 Den

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 09:35 PM

QUOTE
Also, if it was a marbled recessive gene, wouldn't we find normal looking peacocks throwing marbleds out every now and again? Surely someone would have documented this.
Probably not enough fish bred in the hobby or by any hobbiest to pick up a blotched and if it does happen the chances its gonna become public are slim, since only a tiny fraction of the hobby are involved in clubs etc, but at fish farms you have hundreds of thousands of fish being bred and moving through, so they chances to pick up a mutant are greater.

QUOTE
What about marbled Dimidiochromis compressiceps . They throw true fry and are a hybrid.
Just a thort I could be way wrong tho.
really need to see a whole batch, we dont know what percentage of fry are true to shape and what are not.







#11 gibbs

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 09:35 PM

BTW there is a bloke in the US that has successfully created an OB Fryeri. It looks bloody awesome to!

#12 Den

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 09:40 PM

QUOTE
In regards to body shape, OB peacocks come in all shapes and sizes. Some long and slender others are staunch, so there shapes, size, base colour are all variable which isn't a good indication of a species purity. Like Poncho said, crossing in-genus is still creating a hybrid


Different body shapes is why I suggested that fish farms could be using different species to each other.

Also if interspecies hybrids are a concern, then every fish in the wild and in the hobby faces that question not just marbled peacocks.

Cheers
Den smile.gif


#13 gibbs

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 09:42 PM

QUOTE (Den @ Jun 6 2011, 09:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Probably not enough fish bred in the hobby or by any hobbiest to pick up a blotched and if it does happen the chances its gonna become public are slim, since only a tiny fraction of the hobby are involved in clubs etc, but at fish farms you have hundreds of thousands of fish being bred and moving through, so they chances to pick up a mutant are greater.

really need to see a whole batch, we dont know what percentage of fry are true to shape and what are not.



Haha now your making up your own rules Den. Again i agree with Poncho's statement. Aulonocara's are huge around the world, not so much in Australia. It would definately have been documented. Or whats the chance of the 1 time it's happened in history the keeper just happens to be a dedicated fish breeder and hobbiest and then spends the next 5 - 10 years perfecting and establishing the species......Don't think so Den.

#14 Den

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 10:07 PM

Thanks Gibbs, but I dont consider logic as my own personal rule.

If we have a hybrid fish created by crossing 2 or more genera here then there should be some traits coming from both species in some of the fry, you cant just pick out the blotched pattern and get it to appear by itself perfectly every time, the only way to proove they are hybrids it is to show lots of examples where you find non peacock features in various blotched peacock fish;

for example show us metraclima or trewavasae mouths and heads popping up in batches of marbled peacocks, but we are not seeing that? why not? if they were hybrids we should be seeing some fish coming out with mixed traits, the fact that all we see is the new colour pattern tells me that its just one mutant gene thats been exploited, if it was a hybrid you would have a big soup of genes that you cant unpick so cleanly, hope that makes sense.

Cheers
Den

Edited by Den, 06 June 2011 - 10:09 PM.


#15 Mr_docfish

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 10:18 PM

I firmly agree here with Den too.

I can think of several fish species including cichlids from other parts of the world that show a marbled strain.

Marbled Bristlenose
Marbled Kissing Gourami
Marbled Suckers (algae eaters)
Swordtails and Platies
Calico Goldfish

None of these occur in the wild...

Paralabidochromis chromogynos
Tropheops sp Makonde

These occur in the wild, but in limited numbers

There is a marbled Frontosa in captivity - but it is so rare to find one in the wild....

the examples above of marbled angels and marbled convicts show cichlids in a colour form that does not occur in the wild

These leukocystic forms occur from time to time in many animal species - Cats, Birds, Reptiles etc..... birds are the best examples due to the frequency of reproduction allowing fast selection through inbreeding and creating forms of colours that could never be seen in the wild like Piebalds, Lutinos, cinnamons etc....

The fact you dont see this marbling in many other cichlids is due to the lack of inbreeding or the lack of the one leucocystic individual from randomly appearing..... if crossing any type of cichlid with a Pseudotropheus to produce a OB or marble was that easy - then why dont we see marbled EYs, marbled venustus, marbled auratus???
We do see Marbled compressiceps - but you can clearly see from the shape of the head and other features that this is a hybrid with a marbled peacock.....

this is what a marbled hybrid of a peacock with a pseudotropheus looks like -



check the head shape - not right (if you have seen enough peacocks in your life, you can notice it right away... and the fact it is labelled as a Zebra... well... the internet is full of misinformation.....



I personally feel that the issue of the marbled or OB peacock is just a product of sheep mentality - someone that did not like the odd colouration of the marbled peacock and the fact it did not conform to the normal colouration expected (in a purist point of view) made such a comment as to allude that it might be, or must of been, a cross, did so without realising that with the advent of the internet age, this information will be taken as gospel and regurgitated time and time again to a point that everyone has to believe because the internet says so..... If you believe everything you read on Wikipedia - Im sorry for your dull life....

Unfortunately, this poor fish variety has been given a bad name. If the consensus was different many years ago, or if photos of the original fish were published on the net, then this would be different today... but during the dawn of the internet, this idea of this new fish variety that clearly is impressive to many new fish keepers, was labelled a hybrid... so this label has stuck.

If we can give this form of fish a new label - say a Colour Form (similar to plant enthusiasts labelling new plant forms as "var" other wise known as a "cultivar" or "variation") then it can survive in a commercial sense to bring new people into the hobby, where once embedded in the hobby, will learn to keep more challenging fish species.... is this not one of the purposes of the PCS? Education?

In a commercial sense, I have a market for both sides of the fence... those just entering the hobby - looking for a cheap but colourful fish... and those hobbyists looking for something different or difficult without the stigma of being a common fish.

Banning the Marble peacock over an innuendo from time gone by is limited minded. Im glad Den bought this up, and I support this discussion - in the hope there is a conclusion to support the discussions on the "Peacocks that dont look like the fish we see in the books".

Cheers
Oliver

#16 Dr_Pat

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 10:26 PM

Whoah! Let's not bring wikipedia into this Oli.... Easier to take back a gift that was given then a word that was thrown away.

(I get all the info for my assignments from wikipedia. lol) cool.gif

But absolutely agree with Den. (for what it's worth)


#17 gibbs

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 10:44 PM

I think the PCS has given the marbled peacock a bad name along with flowerhorns and possibly dragonsblood peacocks also.

Around the world all 3 fish are in big demand but in our teeny tiny unimportant part of the world they are frowned upon. Speak of them and you feel the rath!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! poster_oops.gif

It's a pity because both flowerhorns and marbled peacocks are both awesome looking fish but you are made to feel like a second rate citizen for breeding them and good luck selling them. Also i think the availability of both the dragonsblood and marbled peacocks may deter breeders away from them seeing as they are a common fish.

Go overseas you will find big competitions for all 3 species of fish, even if they are or are not a hybrid.

#18 Mr_docfish

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 10:51 PM

QUOTE (Dr_Pat @ Jun 6 2011, 10:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(I get all the info for my assignments from wikipedia. lol) cool.gif


I hope you dont reference Wiki.... I was told I would get my project thrown back at me if I hinted I even looked at it......

If you check the forums, and consider where most of the people are getting their information from, then you will notice that 99% of people will be referencing their ideas from somewhere on the net.... so if that 1% someone posted something incorrect, then the other 99% will be regurgitating that same crap from forum to forum until it is considered unanimous.... herein lays the issue with marbled peacocks....

Why are marbled angels accepted..... why are marbled bristlenose accepted (when most forums cant even agree what species the bristlenose we have in captivity really is!!!) and look at so many other fish:







And then look at birds - never see these in the wild?





and reptiles....




Who thinks someone injected OB zebra genes into these animals?.....


It is so easy to convince the masses against something not quite right - it is called racism..... pick on the odd ball.....


I once was told a good sentence that all lawyers use -

"Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence".... which interpreted here - if you dont find a marbled peacock in the wild, that does not mean it does not exist

It might not even appear in the genes until something goes wrong - when the DNA/RNA miss one or two bits during replication....

#19 Fish Antics

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 10:55 PM

Can I just say that the PCS has not given the marbled peacock a bad name. The issue of Marbled peacocks has a lot of following on the net, yet there is no actual accounts of where or how it started, We have even made a call for assistance with trying to find out as much of the relivant information as possible to get the truth. IMO this has more merit than just branding a species a Hybrid to go along with what is generally believed.

Tony

#20 sandgroper

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 11:11 PM

IMO none of the marbles look as good as the originals, they all look like the peppered goldfish.




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