13 replies to this topic

[abc123]

So I'm wanting to start a discus tank 4x2x2 (unplanted).

What is the best way to setup a tank?

I'm pretty confused on what is actually essential?

 

co2 system to maintain PH...?

I'm thinking a reactor, a regulator and a controller? And of course a co2 bottle (I'll probably get this from a brewery) will these items help optimise the co2 use in the tank and not be wasted? I want to save $$ on refills so I don't need to refill as often.

Also where's the best way to find this and cheapest or good value (I don't want unreliable items). From eBay? Or LFS?

If anyone has some good items they've bought online and can provide links to me please PM me that would be awesome

Thanks!

Edited by abc123, 16 May 2014 - 11:44 PM.

[sydad]

Perhaps I'm a little confused, but you state that the tank is to be unplanted. Why then do you wish to use CO2 in it?

 

If you are thinking in terms of pH control, then my advice is to think again, as this invariably leads to more problems than it solves in unplanted aquaria..

 

Syd.

[abc123]

yes, i've got told that a CO2 system will stabilise the pH and is more easier/effective at maintaining the pH instead of chucking in some chemicals because it's important to maintain the same pH for discus?

Edited by slink, 17 May 2014 - 07:31 AM.
Please don't quote post directly above

[BristledOne]

I'd be more inclined to look into substrates that will buffer the ph for you, surely it would work out cheaper than paying for a CO2 setup and the ongoing costs?

[abc123]

i'll definitely look into it mate, does it keep the pH stable though? I know theres a lot of things to buffer the pH... but the important thing is to keep it stable or the discus will die and i wouldn't want that happening haha

Edited by slink, 17 May 2014 - 07:32 AM.
Please don't quote post directly above

[fuggers]

whats your water ph already? bred discus nowadays can tolerate more than wild caught. your better off putting the money into a good filter system to stablise your water parameters

[Hooked]

Hi mate,

 

Someone that is using Co2 to "try" and balance there ph is generally using it first and foremost for their plants. The CO2 is used for photosynthesis. Plants love the stuff! Having said that though you can have a thriving planted tank, yes grows slower, without a C02 system. Most people think that a tank requires air-stones or vigorous water movement to oxygenate the water. It doesn't. The air stone bubbles move the surface but it also just off-gas's the small amount of CO2 given off by the fish, which if you can keep in your tanks longer, plants will appreciate and you will see a noticeable difference in plant growth. YES, the tank requires oxygen, but a spray bar from a canister or a small power head filter moving the surface very gently is enough to oxygenate it. I recommend even though someone doesn't have a Co2 system that they use a small glass in-tank Co2 drop checker to show small changes in Co2. Its dark blue when very little Co2 and even though you are not injecting Co2 which would turn it a lighter green colour, it does show a change as CO2 builds if you look carefully, its a dark green/blue colour. A useful tool.

As always look at your fish, if they are breathing rapidly or gasping at the surface, you have gone to far and need to increase the surface current.

 

I do realise I have not really answered your question re the Discus. I'm heading out now, but will pass on a bit of info to you later that you may find helpful if you are just starting out with them.

 

Cheers

[abc123]

whats your water ph already? bred discus nowadays can tolerate more than wild caught. your better off putting the money into a good filter system to stablise your water parameters

It's 7.6-7.8 in Hillarys
I've got a pretty good filter system going ATM no troubles with it and a pond UV light added into it too so pretty strong stuff.
Plus I'll be doing 1-2 water changes weekly
And only want 5-6 discus so I can't see much trouble in buying more filter when I could use the money to get a co2 system and in future use it to grow plants etc or just sell it off and still get a good proportion amount of money back from what I spent ?

Hi mate,
 
Someone that is using Co2 to "try" and balance there ph is generally using it first and foremost for their plants. The CO2 is used for photosynthesis. Plants love the stuff! Having said that though you can have a thriving planted tank, yes grows slower, without a C02 system. Most people think that a tank requires air-stones or vigorous water movement to oxygenate the water. It doesn't. The air stone bubbles move the surface but it also just off-gas's the small amount of CO2 given off by the fish, which if you can keep in your tanks longer, plants will appreciate and you will see a noticeable difference in plant growth. YES, the tank requires oxygen, but a spray bar from a canister or a small power head filter moving the surface very gently is enough to oxygenate it. I recommend even though someone doesn't have a Co2 system that they use a small glass in-tank Co2 drop checker to show small changes in Co2. Its dark blue when very little Co2 and even though you are not injecting Co2 which would turn it a lighter green colour, it does show a change as CO2 builds if you look carefully, its a dark green/blue colour. A useful tool.
As always look at your fish, if they are breathing rapidly or gasping at the surface, you have gone to far and need to increase the surface current.
 
I do realise I have not really answered your question re the Discus. I'm heading out now, but will pass on a bit of info to you later that you may find helpful if you are just starting out with them.
 
Cheers

My ph is particularly high (7.6-7.8), and adding driftwood, substrate, peat moss, almond leaves etc will still be adding up costs to maintain a low ph and it may not even be accurate or stable? Compared to a co2 system is precise?

Edited by abc123, 17 May 2014 - 02:19 PM.

[Hooked]

Hi Mate,

 

If you are experienced with balancing your water parameters before the water goes in at change time, Ph, temp etc and understand the need for good quality high volume filtration and the need for keeping nitrates low then give them a go. But if you are not really aware of what causes the changes in Ph, what high nitrates and any amount of ammonia do to fish then I'd suggest doing some more research before diving in.  

Discus will live in a wide spread of parameters, I know people that breed them in high Ph water. Discus thrive when their environment is kept stable or if when its changing that it does it slowly over days not minutes.

Discus love clean water and really perk up at water change time. Most people will tell you their fish get randy at large water change times or lay eggs soon after.

I personally quarantine my Discus for 2 months after I pick them up. Buying Discus and dropping them straight into an established tank with disease free fish or strong fish coping with parasites etc is asking for trouble and a lot of extra work. A bare bottom quarantine tank allows you to keep it clean easier and keep an eye on their poop as this can give indications of disease. Makes it easier to do a daily or after each feed vac also.

If going into a gravel or planted tank I recommend a clean up crew of Corries and Bristle Nose Catfish for the bottom clean up and a good size school of Rummy Nose or Cardinal Tetras to clean up the fine food in the water column. Discus are prone to bacterial gill infection if there's a lot of bacterial activity from rotting food etc.

I'll tell you what I do but IT IS NOT ESSENTIAL, I cant stress that enough. I  have a planted tank, heaps of clean up crew and only do a vac every week or two. (You should vac every water change, even daily if no clean up crew or after each feed) I use a mix of rain and tap water to keep my Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) low. Read up on TDS later but DON'T worry about it. It will make your fish a little happier or prone to breed a little more often but definitely DONT stress over it. Something for when you are more advanced. Get a covered container that holds your amount of change water, aerate with an air stone to cause some minor current and heat it to match the tank. Adjust the ph with Hydrochloric acid or ph down to get it to your preferred Ph. Get yourself a notebook and write down how much of this or that you put in to change it. Then leave it and come back to it maybe a day later and check it again. Adjust it again, then leave it and adjust again. This is a good learning practical exercise on "buffering", then research buffering and understand what is happening. If you bang a bit of acid in some tap water to adjust it to your tanks Ph and then add it in large volume the tank will generally have a higher Ph soon after due to the minerals.  If you have taken notes you are then able to better remember the amounts to put in in total when mixing up a batch of change water next time. I leave my containers of change water overnight to settle, recheck and add any minor extra acid etc. You may add other stuff to buffer it up and down to stabilise it depending on its make up. Now you have done your best to adjust your water. If new to Discus possibly do regular 20-30% water changes as necessary (watching your Nitrate level etc). I do an 80-90% water change at change time, but I don't recommend this. It reduces my workload as its a 1000lt tank, instead of lots of little changes. But I recommend more smaller regular changes as this lessens the chance of changing the parameters to quickly. I recommend a Ph in the high 6's when starting out. That way you can see if its dropping with the usual API type test kits. No good starting at 6, if it drops you cant really tell if the kit doesn't register below 6. Water temp above 28c and below 30c. Some disease treatment recommends raising the temp by a few degrees to 32c. If you are already nearly there with a high temp then you cant raise it. Temp can affect plants so keep that in mind also if planting out.

If you understand and keep your tank at present quite balanced, or know why you should then give them a go. You don't have to use rain water, you don't have to use Reverse Osmosis water. Discus are hardier than a lot of people give them credit for. Keep it simple, clean and balanced as best you can. No need to be anal about small changes. Everyone does it differently. Stick to the basics. Do your best and your Discus will thrive. Watch your fish, you will learn when they are not happy. If you do a change and they all hang in the corner near the surface then you have freaked them out with to high a change in parameters. 

I have a quality CO2 system but have now stopped using it as the moment as plants grew too quick and I'm trying to reduce the workload. I'd say that if you are new to Discus and new to CO2 then just start with one not both at once as your head may implode as you try to research why its all going wrong. 

 

Hope it helps,

 

Cheers

 

.

Edited by Hooked, 17 May 2014 - 03:02 PM.

[abc123]

Mate that's incredible information thanks a lot!
I won't be keeping juveniles (too high maintenance)
I'm thinking two weekly 35-50% W/C and one of them being syphoning (I'll have gravel)
Straight water from the tap and add some prime but I won't buffer the water before I add it into the tank I don't like adding chemicals for pH it's not reliable IMO.
Let the co2 system do it's job with stabilising a ph that the discus are used too from where I purchase them. And maybe in future I'll add plants when I want a change of scenery.
And few bristlenose and a school of rummys, maybe a few Corrys or clown loach?

How does that sound?

[Hooked]

Hi,

 

I would research the pitfalls of Co2 that others have had before spending the money. A simple thing such as a dirty probe in the tank will give you an incorrect ph reading, tight fitting glass lids and you will gas your fish etc

Think about this, at low ph there is a lot less bacteria in your filter. The higher it is the more it thrives, to a point.....

Now a lot of people here are use to high ph African Cichlids and going over to Discus now are some of these crew. The ph of tap water was generally high, so suited the Africans. Higher ph, higher beneficial bacterial content, higher processing of Ammonia into Nitrite and then the end product Nitrate. 

 

Now they go over to Discus, drop the ph, buy some fish etc etc. But if the ph is to low for extended periods, ie being tested with an API tester which only goes to 6, will only ever indicate 6 even if it drops way below that. The bacteria can be WAY less, the Ammonia will not be processed as quick as with the Africans and it will creep up and bite you on the "proverbial" by affecting your fish. They will slowly die, you wont know why. Ammonia is bad stuff even in minute quantities.

 

I just feel you are putting way to much faith in a CO2 system to control your ph accurately.

 

To be honest I think we all develop a way of doing things. We research, learn all the technical jargon, overcome the pitfalls and it all settles down. The problems become a distant memory and we forget to some part why it is we do what we do. It works, we are comfortable. I'm sure there's plenty I havent thought to mention.

 

One last thing, gotta head out again. Whether you use say HCL or Co2 to adjust your ph. It's all just a chemical reaction.

 

You'll get there mate, keep asking lots of questions,

 

 

The slower you go the more you will enjoy it  : )

[Mononoke]

Awesome info Hooked! I'm a relative beginner at Discus, but very happy with what I've achieved in quite a short time. For what it's worth, I can also share my short but interesting journey...

 

I have a 4ft 180l community planted tank in which the centrepiece is a bonded pair of Discus (female wild Red Cuipeua and male Blue Diamond). I allowed the tank to mature for a few months before adding the Discus, as I wanted practice regarding water parameters, and to establish the planted ecosystem and base community of fish. Other residents in the tank include Cardinal/Red Phantom tetras, hatchetfish, and at various times Apistogrammas and Royal Whiptail Catfish. I also have native shrimp in there as a cleanup crew, but the discus don't consider them as food so they are safe.  I really think a planted tank with driftwood etc is the best environment for Amazonian fish... they have places to hide, define territory, and even play. Even though I only have a pair of discus, they are very happy and not at all shy, constantly parading around the tank and only hiding when particularly scary people come in (like the neighbour's loud children!).

 

I don't use a CO2 system, but dose with Excel/Leaf Zone for the plants and use 3/4 RO water to 1/4 tap water (Fremantle) and peat in the filter to maintain a PH of about 6.5. The investment for me was the RO unit, but if I had the $$$ I might consider an injected CO2 system as well. As it stands the plants grow well enough. One note though... I laid a base substrate of laterite before adding river sand. I think this has done a lot to nourish my plants in the long-run.

 

As far as health goes, I've actually found my wild Discus more robust than the captive-bred, but I guess it may be down to individuals though. I supplement their diet with vitamins, spirulina and trace minerals and also worm them once a month. The filter (Eheim 2217) does a great job controlling Ammonia and Nitrites, but to maintain low Nitrate levels I MUST do a 40% water change TWICE a week... long term Nitrate exposure is especially tough on my Blue Diamond's immune system and makes him vulnerable to parasites and infections. I maintain a temperature of 29C... in cold weather I mix hot tap water with the cold RO water before adding to the tank so the temperature difference is minimal when doing water changes. I do run oxygen as well, as some of the other fish do seem to like it.

 

As far as what is ESSENTIAL (in my limited experience)? RO unit definitely... having read up on discus it seems they are more sensitive to water hardness than PH, and of course by being able to control hardness makes it easier to control PH (in my case I use peat and driftwood). Second, a commitment to water changes... it depends on the bioload and filtration of your tank, but in my case if I don't do 40% twice a week, there's trouble. Third, good nutrition and preventative healthcare (eg. monthly worming)... if your discus are super fussy (like mine) it helps to fortify their food. If they're not fussy, lucky you!! Feed them a variety of protein/plant-based foods. Finally, a low-stress environment... they are sensitive sausages and you need to get to know their needs, whether it be more companions, hiding spots, different lighting, and not too many scary surprises from outside the tank. Oh yes, one more thing... a comprehensive water test kit.

 

Anyway, that's what I've discovered so far. I have done a lot of research but still made a few mistakes, however its all part of the learning experience. I am also very grateful to have so many generous and knowledgable people here at PCS. Its great to read articles and books but too much info too quickly just gets confusing, and as Hooked said it can be hard to tell what's going on if you've got too many parameters and not much experience yet.

 

Just a few thoughts from a fellow rookie. 

[malawiman85]

If you are using co2 why not plant the tank? It will look better AND help maintain water quality between water changes and will compete with algae for resources.

[abc123]

Hi,

 

I would research the pitfalls of Co2 that others have had before spending the money. A simple thing such as a dirty probe in the tank will give you an incorrect ph reading, tight fitting glass lids and you will gas your fish etc

Think about this, at low ph there is a lot less bacteria in your filter. The higher it is the more it thrives, to a point.....

Now a lot of people here are use to high ph African Cichlids and going over to Discus now are some of these crew. The ph of tap water was generally high, so suited the Africans. Higher ph, higher beneficial bacterial content, higher processing of Ammonia into Nitrite and then the end product Nitrate. 

 

Now they go over to Discus, drop the ph, buy some fish etc etc. But if the ph is to low for extended periods, ie being tested with an API tester which only goes to 6, will only ever indicate 6 even if it drops way below that. The bacteria can be WAY less, the Ammonia will not be processed as quick as with the Africans and it will creep up and bite you on the "proverbial" by affecting your fish. They will slowly die, you wont know why. Ammonia is bad stuff even in minute quantities.

 

I just feel you are putting way to much faith in a CO2 system to control your ph accurately.

 

To be honest I think we all develop a way of doing things. We research, learn all the technical jargon, overcome the pitfalls and it all settles down. The problems become a distant memory and we forget to some part why it is we do what we do. It works, we are comfortable. I'm sure there's plenty I havent thought to mention.

 

One last thing, gotta head out again. Whether you use say HCL or Co2 to adjust your ph. It's all just a chemical reaction.

 

You'll get there mate, keep asking lots of questions,

 

 

The slower you go the more you will enjoy it  : )

 

yeah, i'm in no rush. But i've got told CO2 system is the easiest and most accurate. Do you think discus could manage if i tap fill my tank.. use prime, co2 system kicks in lowers ph, and my heaters will be on while i fill up the tank?

because i won't be getting a container to make the ph & temp ready to go for a W/C.

 

I think all these perfect match would be more so wild discus?

 

i will always keep asking questions until i'm ready haha

 

 

Awesome info Hooked! I'm a relative beginner at Discus, but very happy with what I've achieved in quite a short time. For what it's worth, I can also share my short but interesting journey...

 

I have a 4ft 180l community planted tank in which the centrepiece is a bonded pair of Discus (female wild Red Cuipeua and male Blue Diamond). I allowed the tank to mature for a few months before adding the Discus, as I wanted practice regarding water parameters, and to establish the planted ecosystem and base community of fish. Other residents in the tank include Cardinal/Red Phantom tetras, hatchetfish, and at various times Apistogrammas and Royal Whiptail Catfish. I also have native shrimp in there as a cleanup crew, but the discus don't consider them as food so they are safe.  I really think a planted tank with driftwood etc is the best environment for Amazonian fish... they have places to hide, define territory, and even play. Even though I only have a pair of discus, they are very happy and not at all shy, constantly parading around the tank and only hiding when particularly scary people come in (like the neighbour's loud children!).

 

I don't use a CO2 system, but dose with Excel/Leaf Zone for the plants and use 3/4 RO water to 1/4 tap water (Fremantle) and peat in the filter to maintain a PH of about 6.5. The investment for me was the RO unit, but if I had the $$$ I might consider an injected CO2 system as well. As it stands the plants grow well enough. One note though... I laid a base substrate of laterite before adding river sand. I think this has done a lot to nourish my plants in the long-run.

 

As far as health goes, I've actually found my wild Discus more robust than the captive-bred, but I guess it may be down to individuals though. I supplement their diet with vitamins, spirulina and trace minerals and also worm them once a month. The filter (Eheim 2217) does a great job controlling Ammonia and Nitrites, but to maintain low Nitrate levels I MUST do a 40% water change TWICE a week... long term Nitrate exposure is especially tough on my Blue Diamond's immune system and makes him vulnerable to parasites and infections. I maintain a temperature of 29C... in cold weather I mix hot tap water with the cold RO water before adding to the tank so the temperature difference is minimal when doing water changes. I do run oxygen as well, as some of the other fish do seem to like it.

 

As far as what is ESSENTIAL (in my limited experience)? RO unit definitely... having read up on discus it seems they are more sensitive to water hardness than PH, and of course by being able to control hardness makes it easier to control PH (in my case I use peat and driftwood). Second, a commitment to water changes... it depends on the bioload and filtration of your tank, but in my case if I don't do 40% twice a week, there's trouble. Third, good nutrition and preventative healthcare (eg. monthly worming)... if your discus are super fussy (like mine) it helps to fortify their food. If they're not fussy, lucky you!! Feed them a variety of protein/plant-based foods. Finally, a low-stress environment... they are sensitive sausages and you need to get to know their needs, whether it be more companions, hiding spots, different lighting, and not too many scary surprises from outside the tank. Oh yes, one more thing... a comprehensive water test kit.

 

Anyway, that's what I've discovered so far. I have done a lot of research but still made a few mistakes, however its all part of the learning experience. I am also very grateful to have so many generous and knowledgable people here at PCS. Its great to read articles and books but too much info too quickly just gets confusing, and as Hooked said it can be hard to tell what's going on if you've got too many parameters and not much experience yet.

 

Just a few thoughts from a fellow rookie. 

 

yeah, being prepared to do a few W/C weekly is a must and that will stop the increase of hardness in your tank too.

O2 is important because discus are in higher temperature environment. 

a R/O isn't a must, i don't think i'll be getting one 

nice work mate

 

 

If you are using co2 why not plant the tank? It will look better AND help maintain water quality between water changes and will compete with algae for resources.

 

i prefer just the driftwood look and then the discus being the center piece. instead of having so much going on in the tank. Just what i like anyway

another reason i'd rather go with co2, is because if i do in fact want plants, i can easily get some. Or if i like to sell my system i can get some money back too, which is always a plus