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Fish Dying... Again


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#1 moses123

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 08:04 PM

Once again my fish are dying out of no where. Before I went on holidays, lost a lot of fish. Recently got back about a month and a half ago and restocked the tank. No dramas. Some fish were even breeding in the tropical community tank.

About 2 weeks ago, I had purchased 6 angel fish and added them to the tank. Over the course of 5 days I had lost 3. The other 3 seem to be doing fine now.

4 days ago I had done my usual weekly water change except for two main things. It was 2 days earlier and about 10% more than the usual 25% change since I had forgot it was draining. Anyways refilled water as per usual, temp about the same +/- 1'C. Before bed I had noticed my apisto agassizii male hiding, gasping rapidly and not eating. One of the females was also gasping but was still eating.

Next morning, 1 male apisto and 2 cardinal tetras dead. Female looking even worse. Got back from work and found female dead and 3 more cardinals dead.

Next day 1 cardinal, 1 pygmy cory, 2 emperor tetras and 1 scleromystax barbatus dead.

Today I got back from work and found 2 gold tetras, 1 cardinal tetra and my other female agassizii dead. Also, one gold tetra is turning dark black and will probably go soon.

No medications or anything different have been added to the tank since I arrived.

Other fish in the tank include 2 other apistos, congo tetras, threadfin rainbows, galaxy rasboras, black corys, royal whips and red whips. All remaining fish seem to be okay for now.

Anyone know what might be going on? I also noticed 2 cardinals breathing rapidly but not near the surface. Also when I found my pygmy cory dead, it had red gills. There is one in the tank swimming lifelessly also with red gills and a bulging eye. What's going on this time?

Sorry for the long read but thanks for all help.

Edited by moses123, 05 April 2017 - 09:23 PM.


#2 Delapool

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 10:13 PM

Couple of thoughts would be:

Have you tested ph, ammonia, everything else? Usual checks.

I assume you are on Perth tap water? Using seachem safe/prime still?

How are you acclimatising fish when adding? Three lost just seems unusual.

Stocking level ok?

http://aqadvisor.com

Did tank go cloudy or anything after water change? Clean the gravel or filters?


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Edited by Delapool, 05 April 2017 - 10:19 PM.


#3 malawiman85

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 05:54 AM

Probably ammonia.
A spike can kill fish right away and continue to kill fish for a period of time.
I would consider adding some detail to your original post: filtration, stocking, recent meds, water test results, etc.

#4 moses123

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:11 AM

I will get my parameters tested today but I added some conditioner to the aquarium last night as I suspected ammonia so readings might be off.

Tank is 120L x 50W x 40H. 240L planted tank.
According to that site, stocking level was 110%.
Just use tap water with safe by seachem. Water didnt change colour or anything unusual and no filters were cleaned before the water change. No meds have been added to the tank sincd about 3 months ago. Filtration is aqua one nautilis 1100 and 2 large sponge filters.

Stocking:
Apisto agassizii trio
Apisto vieja x1
3cm congo tetras x10
Cardinal tetras x14 (now 5)
Threadfin rainbows x10
Gold tetras x6 (now 4)
Galaxy rasbora x10
Emperor tetras x3 (now 1)
10cm royal whips x3
8cm red whips x3
3cm black cory x5
3cm sclero barbatus x5
Pygmy cory x10 (now 8)
Angelfish x3

Edited by moses123, 06 April 2017 - 07:18 AM.


#5 Delapool

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 08:22 AM

Sad news also on the loss of your fish here :( 

 

To me, it's not fungal or parasites. Bacterial columnaris could do it but would also suspect tank chemistry. Ammonia could do it however I'm wondering if something else is also going on here (ie several small issues that add up plus the slightly larger water change). I assume with the water change it's not a bucket poured quickly in? Else temp matching you do sounds good. Are you running any CO2 into the tank for plants? Adding any liquid carbon (glut)? Any recent root tabs or daily ferts?

 

Aqadvisor should be conservative but I'm going to disagree with it. I have a tank twice the size and one school of congo tetras (these get big!), one school of angelfish and too many bottom feeders. I wouldn't replace any lost fish. This will help if there are some normally minor issues going on with tank. Others will know more but I'd consider that very highly stocked and any tank issues with more sensitive fish like tetras and cories will see them lost unfortunately. 

 

Also I'd get a test kit like API FW master test kit (plus KH and GH). Time to get your own :)

 

Test tank water on changes (for now) and also test tap water. Let the tap water sit in an open jar for 24hrs and then re-test ph to get an idea of what true ph is after water gasses off, etc. You don't need to do this very often (I'll only check once a quarter now), but any issues (eg short-lived chemical spikes or off tap water) and you can check straight away. I find PH and KH can change by the season and are slightly lower in summer. So if your PH/KH is being rapidly consumed, the larger water change (+/- ammonia spike at higher tap ph) could all be an issue. Just some thoughts. 

 

Seachem safe should do the job. I can't remember if there is a useby date but have been using mine for several years. If still getting issues after you added the conditioner last night (and you have filter room), I'd add some carbon. How are the rest of your fish going?



#6 Chopstick_mike

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 09:21 AM

Sounds like your tank is going through a mini cycle I'm wondering if your bb was only just coping with your existing stock and adding the 6 angels it broke the camels back so to speak and caused it to crash and recycle but we won't know anything until we know what your parameters are

#7 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 12:48 AM

doing water changes shouldnt be the problem... i sometimes do 80% water changes on tanks as long as your using sufficient water conditioner.... old old school fish keepers swear by small water changes only - but they didnt have the quality of water conditioners we do today... i'd like to dismiss water changes as your issue.... as long as your using a good water conditioner... i see your using safe - good choice - basically powdered prime minus preservative and a couple minor ingredients im led to believe... 

 

the vast majority of your fish stock are small fish and dont create much waste... not sure 6 angels topped you over your biological filtration maximum capacity.... 

 

i think you have brought in something with your angels.... something sinister....



#8 Delapool

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 12:26 PM

I do very large water changes in the betta tank as well. For the first 6 months it was a bit unstable (before this betta) with ammonia but lately is bomb-proof (bang on wood). I've always wondered if older tanks over eg 4 months have better bacterial populations.


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#9 moses123

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 01:07 PM

Unfortunately I work 9-5 so I cant make it to any fish shops till tomorrow.
Yesterday did a 40% water change. Water is pumped back into the tank so isn't dumped in all at once. No CO2 or ferts added to tank, just dino dung tabs which were last added about a month ago. Also re-added my purigen which was being recharged.

The angelfish are also quite small, only about 5cm in length so not sure if they could have tipped the scale but who knows. I will get my water tested tomorrow and will get a test kit for myself.

This morning I noticed a threadfin rainbow breathing rapidly and being lethargic. He also had what appeared to be a small patch of fungus near his tail. Another rainbow was also breathing rapidly but no apparent fungus. Found a barbatus also dead with some red markings around his gills and body.

I hope its not columnaris but the angels did have sort of ragged fins when I purchased them but who knows. Guess I'll have to wait and see.

Thanks for everyone's input till now, appreciate it.

Edited by moses123, 07 April 2017 - 05:50 PM.


#10 Westie

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 01:48 PM

i think you have brought in something with your angels.... something sinister....

 

I'm with Johno here. Apparently one of the big distributors (AI or Bayfish) had bacteria problems with their angelfish. If I were to put money on it, I would be betting that it was something introduced with the angelfish.



#11 Delapool

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 04:41 PM

Oh dear, does unfortunately sound ominous.


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#12 malawiman85

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 04:51 PM

Hey Jason,

Where did you hear that?

#13 moses123

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 05:50 PM

These angels werent from bayfish or AI. I think he got them from Indonesia or some other country.

#14 Westie

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 08:52 PM

Hey Jason,
Where did you hear that?


Will pm you

#15 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 01:28 AM

I do very large water changes in the betta tank as well. For the first 6 months it was a bit unstable (before this betta) with ammonia but lately is bomb-proof (bang on wood). I've always wondered if older tanks over eg 4 months have better bacterial populations.

 

yes it does take time for your bacteria population to get stronger.... what happens is your weaker bacteria doesnt grow as quick as the stronger bacteria... stronger bacteria eventually over runs weaker bacteria... stronger bacteria functions better and is more resistant to other environmental factors.... 

 

i find using levamisole to worm a tank that has never been wormed usually crashes bacteria... but the next time you treat the tank the bacteria sails through pretty much un effected... which tells me the bacteria is stronger and more resistant to levamisole the second time round...  much like people becoming more resistant to colds and flu the more they are exposed to them.... then when a new flu arrives you dont have any/much resistance to it.....

 

although i have been told by another fish keeper/breeder that has great success - that younger bacteria in its prime is better than a tank that has been running for years with no new introduction of bacteria.... he will introduce bacteria from other tanks every now and then to keep bacteria stronger... he is also a firm believer of keeping higher kh levels to suoercharge your bacteria....



#16 Chopstick_mike

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 03:48 PM

 
yes it does take time for your bacteria population to get stronger.... what happens is your weaker bacteria doesnt grow as quick as the stronger bacteria... stronger bacteria eventually over runs weaker bacteria... stronger bacteria functions better and is more resistant to other environmental factors.... 
 
i find using levamisole to worm a tank that has never been wormed usually crashes bacteria... but the next time you treat the tank the bacteria sails through pretty much un effected... which tells me the bacteria is stronger and more resistant to levamisole the second time round...  much like people becoming more resistant to colds and flu the more they are exposed to them.... then when a new flu arrives you dont have any/much resistance to it.....
 
although i have been told by another fish keeper/breeder that has great success - that younger bacteria in its prime is better than a tank that has been running for years with no new introduction of bacteria.... he will introduce bacteria from other tanks every now and then to keep bacteria stronger... he is also a firm believer of keeping higher kh levels to suoercharge your bacteria....

thats quite interesting mate and quite handy to know if people ever need to treat for worms

#17 moses123

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 07:01 PM

Had my water tested today.
pH the usual 7.6ish from the tap.
Tiny bit of ammonia according to the guy. No exact number
0 nitrites

With that tiny bit of ammonia, could it have been a spike? Today I only found 2 fish dead which is a pleasant change from the usual 3-5 but still shitty none the less.

Any thoughts? Thanks again

#18 Stormfyre

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 10:35 PM

Yes, it is possible moses123. 
 
What was the nitrates at?
 
I noticed you used Safe from Seachem. Are you aware the dosage on that is extremely small? The tiniest bit is all you need even in medium sized tanks and i suggest you mix in into a bucket of water or creating your own bottle of Safe Mixture (like Prime) before adding to aquarium. For that size tank you would need 1/20th of a teaspoon, that is a miniscule amount that would be hard to measure. I would be looking at this as a possible cause along with Ammonia spike as it is a reducing agent and bad at high doses. Would even deplete oxygen at high levels. It warns on the bottle DO NOT OVERDOSE.
 
I think it would be a little unusual to have so many fish die at once (everyday in a short period) and it be worms or parasites.

#19 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 02:24 AM

a tiny ammonia reading today could equal a much higher reading days before... but nitrite will usually spike after an ammonia spike (especially if ammonia spike was big). basically as your ammonia spike recedes nitrite spike starts to occur.... 

 

but seeing you have zero nitrites - than perhaps the tiny reading of ammonia maybe just that tiny less than 0.1ppm... basically so close to zero but the colour wasnt completely yellow.... 

 

you couldnt take a pic of the safe bottle/tub showing instructions for us to read ???  im unfamiliar with the recommended dosage and warnings on label...  i use prime (liquid) myself.....



#20 sandgroper

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 02:33 AM

Get yourself a water storage drum, age and treat your water in it before adding it to the tank. Your water will be a lot more stable this way and yes Safe is super potent do not over dose.






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