23 replies to this topic

[ewoliver]

hey guys
i have just purchased a new tank with dimensions of 38x18x18, i was hoping some expierenced fish keepers could give me all the advice needed.
i would like to know how to do the fishless cycle and also i would like a mbuna set up and would really like some advice and examples of which fish are compatible and their requirements.
there is quite a few asks their but all the knowledge recieved would be most appreciated
thanks

[Salpon]

I only have a few mbuna in my mixed tank but I have found that Cobalt blues, electric yellows, msobos and socolofi all seem to not bother each other.

I've had bad experiences keeping demasoni with elongatus.

Check out this link for genus compatibility >> http://www.cichlidre...lashchartd.html

I've never done a fishless cycle so can't help you there.

All the best!

Matt

[Ivan Sng]

Okay now, fishless cycling... make sure you have your tank all setup and ready to go. Filter running, aeration, etc.

Now don't gross out... Collect some pee in a container... a 600ml plastic bottle works well... You have the option of aging (ie. leave outside for a few days)
the pee first, hence ammonia is immediately detectable or not aging, hence you can only test for ammonia about 1-2 days after adding to the tank water.

Cannot remember the exact amount (ml) to apply but you don't need much... What you want to do is to get ammonia to about 4ppm... and thens stop
adding. Keep the system running and if you have a heater, install it and let it run as well. Nitrification bacteria grows faster at higher temperatures, bu not
too high... Temperature for tropical fishes should suffice.

Aeration is also important as oxygen is required for nitrification.

After a month or so, you should see ammonia start to drop, and nitrite start to drop shortly after. Check your water results regularly to see which stage the cycling is at.
Remember though that once you commit to fishless cycling you should not suddenly decide to add fishes for obvious reasons.

After ammonia and nitrite drops to zero, you might need to do a small water change as the nitrates could be quite high, before adding fishes. Remember though you still need to slowly introduce fishes and keep the feed minimum to allow time for the bacteria to pick up the bioload but it should be fairly quick.

And if you are not comfortable using pee, look for another ammonia source... but I reckon pee is the cheapest and most organic ammonia source you can get...

[Ivan Sng]

After writing all that, I think you can get another summary here...

http://www.backyarda...ishless cycling

[werdna]

You can piss in your tank if you want... But I never cycle my tanks.
I fill them up, wait a day for chlorine to evaporate and water to heat up, then add a small amount of fish at a time.
But entirely up to you...

Mbuna are pretty hardy, just don't put 50 in at a time.

[Cawdor]

But I never cycle my tanks.
I fill them up, wait a day for chlorine to evaporate and water to heat up, then add a small amount of fish at a time.
Mbuna are pretty hardy, just don't put 50 in at a time.

In my opinion this statement as it is is quite dangerous. You don't mention tank size, you don't mention the need for water changes daily if it's a small tank, you don't mention taking it easy on feeding and you don't mention regular water tests. If someone were to follow what you said the fish would end up dead from ammonia poisoning. Keep in mind that for people who know what they're doing this method might be ok (I still don't agree but that's a personal choice), but for newbies this is a recipe for disaster. Imagine someone carefully picking out fish, spending money on different species etc and then just chucking them in an uncycled tank without any knowledge of what to look out for and what to do.

[Salpon]

This link might also be useful >> http://www.cichlid-f...nus_gallery.php

[werdna]

If my advice was so bad take some time off editing other peoples posts who have done like yourself and quoted the one above... And supply some advice yourself.

The tank size was mentioned. Its a 3ft tank.
Daily water changes weren't mentioned cos I don't do them.
Regular water tests weren't mentioned cos I don't do them.
Reduced feeding wasn't mentioned cos I don't reduce my feeding.

The fact that I have fish keeping experience makes no difference to how the tank cycles. Whether you agree with it or not it works for me and many other people.

I will expand on the fish number part if it helps you sleep at night.
In that size tank I would add no more than 8 ~10cm fish per week.

I feed my fish every 2nd day, whether they are 1/2cm or 30cm and whether the tank is a week old or 5 years old.

Problems are caused when people add 50 fish at once and feed them 4 times a day.

I personally don't see any difference in leaving a tank for 12 hours or 3 weeks before adding fish, but if you want to look at an empty glass box with urine mixed water in it for 3 weeks go ahead, but I would prefer some fish to supply the pee instead of me.

[Cawdor]

You said "I fill them up" - that means no matter what tank size. It's not about me sleeping at night - it's about presenting information that, with crucial details left out, will lead to fish dying if someone follows it blindly. You choose not to cycle your tanks and that your choice. But there's a reason why people cycle with fish that are cheap and easy to replace - the prolonged exposure to ammonia and nitrite will damage the fish's health and shorten its life. And that's when experienced people do it.

Beginners who just chuck fish in a tank as soon as it's set up will lose most if not all of these fish, because they don't know what to look out for and how to maintain a cycling tank.
You have to keep in mind that you're not just replying to the OP, but that all sorts of people will read your reply, including people who are new to the hobby.

[terboz123]

from my experiences with new tanks, i would recommend just doing a proper cycle, ive lost full tanks due to the fact i didnt cycle and dont agree with it, go on to the morely aquariums site, and click on new tank guides that will help you out alot. i dont know much about the fishless cycle so cant help you there.

[werdna]

I said them because that is how I do all my tanks, including little 35cm x 20cm x 20cm.

What prolonged exposure to ammonia? What evidence is there that my fish wont live as long as yours cos I don't cycle my tanks for 3+ weeks?

Why must my experience be kept quiet because you don't agree with it? I don't use chlorine neutraliser either. Is that a reckless comment too?

[Cawdor]

I'm not going to argue with you because I have made my point quite clear and concise. Nobody wants to "keep your experience quiet", I don't know where in any of my replies you got that from - but as I said above, you need to point out the risks and shortcomings of your method so that people are educated before trying this for themselves.

[Kieran]

For the original poster, I have had good results fishless cycling using a bit of raw prawn or bait, or just 'feeding' the tank a little flake food each day. This provides the ammonia in a more roundabout, but easier on the other half's eyes way

If you have a friend with a fishtank ask them for a small piece of their filter media. You can use this in your filter to 'seed' the tank and speed up the process by a couple weeks.

I personally like to turn the heater up to about 30 deg, to increase the rate of bacterial growth. While I can't lay my hands on any scientific works that support this right now, I believe it to be basic biology -- thinking back to high school!

[Salpon]

How much experience do you have ewoliver? You didn't mention if you've ever set up a tank before...?

If you don't have any experience it's probably worthwhile just cycling your tank with 1 or 2 fish to start with and then slowly adding more. If the first few fish you added start getting territorial and picking on newcomers you can just mix up the decor so they have to establish new territories.

Everyone has a different method to setting up tanks (as you can see from the posts above) but taking the safe route can't hurt. Frequent, small water changes can help during the first month. I would recommend water conditioner as well and maybe some 'stress zyme' which contains live bacteria to speed up the cycling process, supposedly. Even better, beg borrow or steal some filter material from a tank that is alreay running which will already contain bacterial colonies.

And don't feed too much at all initially, tempting though it is with new fish!

Good luck!

Matt.



PS. Almost all fish stores will test your water for you for free.

[ewoliver]

Yer I have had a small community set up with angelfish and tetras, I had that tank for about a year. I think I will wait a few weeks after putting in the water then I will slowly add fish.
I want to add limestone to the tank how can I make sure it won't fall over and damage my tank and also what fish would you guys recommend for a cichlid beginner
thanks

[Ivan Sng]

Yer I have had a small community set up with angelfish and tetras, I had that tank for about a year. I think I will wait a few weeks after putting in the water then I will slowly add fish.
I want to add limestone to the tank how can I make sure it won't fall over and damage my tank and also what fish would you guys recommend for a cichlid beginner
thanks

Well this generated quite a bit of discussion. Anyways, I would like to point out that without an ammonia source, waiting a few weeks after you put in water does nothing for the cycling process. If you are going to wait a few weeks without adding fishes, you are better kick-starting the cycling process with an ammonia source.. maybe a more elegant one like the raw prawn...

And might I add that the method I posted above was actually used to cycle my outdoor system, so it is not bullshit or taken from the net somewhere...

[Salpon]

Good beginner cichlids I guess would be those that are least aggressive. You could try the following together

Copadichromis Borleyi "Kadango" - Red Fin (or anything from the copadichromis genus)
Cynotilapia afra (don't mix more than one species)
Cyrtocara moorrii - Blue Dolphin
Iodotropheus sperengerae - Rusty
Labidochromis caeruleus - Electric Yellow
Metriaclima callainos - Cobalt Blue
Nimbochromis venustus - Venustus
Protomelas taeniolatus "Red" - Red Empress (or any protomelas)
Pseudotropheus socolifi
Sciaenochromis fryeri - Electric Blue

They're all the milder mannered Malawi haps and mbuna I can think of. You would need some good rockwork for the mbuna and also plenty of open water with a sandy bottom for the haps to cruise around.

In my tank I have quite a deep layer of sand and I just put my limestone rocks on top, away from the glass to prevent scratches. As long as you stack it carefully and check it's stability during water changes you should be fine.

Matt

[terboz123]

firstly - no one is argueing with the forum user who posted just keep putting fish when ever you want , people are just disagreeing, do what you please, but a begineer WILL loose fish this way with out cycling. i certainly did and have never gone back to the shop that told me to do so.



in regaerds to rock work, set it up your self , creating caves , holes, heck i even get my masonary drill out/chisel bit and drill 25 mm holes to create large caves....there is no way to do it, just make sure its all stable, cichlids will dig, so that is the key...stability.

ive never had my rock work fall or wot not, if it looks un stable when making it, fix it before you add fish or it will come crashing down.

i would reccomend not bying rocks, it costs way to much, there are areas of perth which i collect rocks from,(limestone) near the sea, so chemical free, but doing that it requires drilling, chipping parts of the limestone off and shaping it to how you want it , can be time consuming but no price involved...


be weary some people may not agree with me here about this as it is illegal(to take limestone from council property), hence i wont give away exactly where i collect from because the councils do consider it illegal.

im sure after this (others also do this im pretty sure) more people will do this so please be SUTTLE about this, dont ruin it for every one and only take what you need.

The fish

well the fish shops will help, the list above is also a good start. but my advice would be if you see something getting bashed, take it back and trade it in, sometimes two species that apparently get along, still have personality clashes and it doesnt work. another way of precenting territorial fights is when you add new fish, re-arrange your rock work, to create new terrortories.


i would reccomend doing a standard fish cycle, meaning add fish (once)and cycle it, get your water tested weekly, till its right to add more. the fish shops will help you and teach you how to test. it averagly will take 4 - 7 weeks some quicker some wont.as i said go to the morely aquariums website and click new tank guide, it will help you understand cycling in depth and the reason to it.

this is my 2 cents, if you want more help feel free to pm, all the way from a bullet train between paris and brussels belgium!!

[tranced]

just get some squeezings from an old filter that is currently live and dirty, and throw it into your new filter. you can pretty much avoid a cycle this way if you do your stocking slowly for the first couple of weeks.

[ewoliver]

sorry to sound stupid but what do u mean by squeezing as in squeeze the fluid from the existing filter on to the new one or take the filter media from the existing one and put it into the new one ??