13 replies to this topic

[Mononoke]

Hi all,

 

I just thought I'd throw this one to everyone for opinions before I go ahead and do it.

 

I have a closely bonded Discus pair in my community tank... a wild Red Cuipera female and a hi-fin Blue Diamond male. They make weekly spawning attempts, but no successes as conditions are not right for them in this tank.

 

As my 90l breeding tank will be empty soon, I was thinking of setting it up to give them a better chance at successfully raising a batch of fry. The question is, do I WANT TO CROSSBREED THEM?? I know that crossbreeding cichlids is generally frowned upon, but is it the same within varieties of Discus? I have a feeling they'd make some lovely babies, would people want the offspring of a wild and captive-bred pair?

 

Opinions? Thanks all

[malawiman85]

Discus are more like handbags than real fish... ya know a fashion accessory. Seriously though (just for a moment) If they looked nice id buy them as display only fish.

[Graddo]

Discus are more like handbags than real fish... ya know a fashion accessory. Seriously though (just for a moment) If they looked nice id buy them as display only fish.

Don't know much about discus, but last time I checked they were real fish. I think a real question warrants a real answer!

[malawiman85]

I did... I said I would buy them.
Point I was making, genius, is that discus are often cross bred in an attempt to come up with something a bit different.... like a fashion accessory. Not saying its a bad thing, to each their own.
So after ive broken it down for you, are you satisfied that it was a real answer? If you dont like it, perhaps you could positively contribute yourself.

[Mononoke]

No no, its all cool. I get what you're saying Malawiman... I guess that's exactly how all the captive-bred strains were created, by cross-breeding. And yes, a lot of the appeal about Discus is in the aesthetics (although I must say my favourites are the wild strains ). He he, I also know that lots of cichlid-keepers find Discus a bit poofy... I love 'em though, along with my Apistos.

 

I've been reading a bit about in-breeding, cross-breeding etc and just wondered whether the same rules apply for Discus... is it ok amongst Discus enthusiasts to experiment with cross-breeding, or whether it would compromise the definition of captive-bred strains and thus be a bit naughty among Discus enthusiasts?

Ha ha, yeah Kleinz me too... I guess Discus lovers have to take a bit on this forum eh.

[Pat]

This is an interesting one that I think I can answer but I am open to correction.

 

To my understanding crossing different "man made" variations of Discus (even one) does not really equate to the crossing of two seperate "naturally selected" species.

 

Aquarium Discus do seem to have undergone some interference by humans in order to create preferable colours and shapes. I guess technically you are suggesting some interference with the naturally selected species of your Wild Red Discus (Simisodin discus?) but it seems that interference with Discus has been rife since they became available in the aquarium industry anyway.

 

What you are suggesting, to my reckoning, is not quite the same as crossing a Blue Dolphin with an Electric Blue as it is not the cross breeding of two seperate naturally selected species. But then, I guess, technically speaking, it's not far off it....Where does one draw the line...

 

There seems to be three or so wild listed species of Discus. How come the man made variations are not considered hybrids by this forum given most of them are the product of intentional interbreeding between seperate wild species? What is the taxonomic name for say a pigeon blood discus? Does he have one? (I seriously don't know...)

 

And before somebody brings up the dog breeds example. The Great Dane and the Chihuaha are both considered Canis familaris. As is your "bitsa mongrel." According to evolutionary research they have all descended from Canis lupus, the Grey Wolf. Also, domestic dog strains have not been created by interspecial crossbreeding, but rather through the selective breeding of individuals with desirable features (mostly asthetic) from the standalone species of Canis familiaris.

 

It's interesting stuff.

 

How does PCS define a hybrid for the purposes of it's T and C's? The biological definition is:-  The offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, especially as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.

 

Based on the biological definition a "mongrel" dog is a hybrid (crossed breeds) but he does have a taxonomic name (Canis familiaris.)

 

A cross between a Blue Dolphin and an Electric Blue is also a hybrid, however it is interspecial and thus has no taxonomic name.

 

And a pigeonblood discus?

 

I'm not trying to stir poo. I want to be educated!

Edited by Pat, 26 February 2014 - 11:59 PM.

[MrLeifBeaver]

I would say, it's fine too. Discus are certainly an accessory style fish. That's why I have them

 

From my readings, there is 3 main types of discus, depending on where they are located in the Amazon river.

Now they have been captively bred and about 9 main types have been formed (redcoat, pidgeon blood, blue diamond, etc).

And now, if you have a look on some discus sites, I have seen over 30+ different looking types.

 

So go for your life. I think we would just be excited if you successfully breed a batch.

[Graddo]

I did... I said I would buy them.
Point I was making, genius, is that discus are often cross bred in an attempt to come up with something a bit different.... like a fashion accessory. Not saying its a bad thing, to each their own.
So after ive broken it down for you, are you satisfied that it was a real answer? If you dont like it, perhaps you could positively contribute yourself.

Did I say i was a genius? No way! Far from it. In fact I'm completely new to this. I joined this forum to learn more about this fantastic hobby, but now I'm not so sure with smart arse comments like these. It was a legitimate question asked, answered but with sarcasm. To me that is just not the way to go about it. Just my opinion.

Edited by Graddo, 26 February 2014 - 10:32 PM.

[Pat]

I reckon they look awesome, mesmirising, and when the time is right I intend to keep a tank of them.

However, based on the points I made above, I also reckon they are mostly interspecial hybrids, but a blind eye gets turned! Which is fine! They deserve it.

Edited by Pat, 26 February 2014 - 11:02 PM.

[TheTexasCichlidMasacre]

its against the rules of the pcs forum to promote cross breeding... the link you posted Pat from the pcs rules says crossing of varities of a species are considered hybrids ... 

Edited by TheTexasCichlidMasacre, 27 February 2014 - 12:14 AM.

[Angelo]

I just bred a red melon with a blue turq, was going to post soon but are the mods going to delete it? I've posted discus breeding pics before and had no issues.

 

and to the original poster, just go ahead and try to breed them, its not as difficult as some make it to be. yes, I did make many mistakes being my first attempt and I will post some results soon however i still got some fry and I am happy. not sure what the cross of your pair will result in but should be interesting. keep us posted if you go ahead.

Edited by Angelo, 27 February 2014 - 12:25 AM.

[sandgroper]

If it doesn't breed true to form then it's a mongrel. The man made varieties have been hand picked and developed over many generations to get a new variety. This is called selective breeding, eventually you get a new colour variety that breeds true to form. I doubt you intend to go down this route as you have to cull a lot of rubbish. You may breed a nice Discus but you will get a lot of rubbish and it will not breed true to form, that will take time with selective breeding and many generations. I say leave it to the experts. 

[MattyB]

It not that easy to get a mutant in a discus gene, I wouldn't even worry, to get a mix in colour because the parents are different types of discus it a one in a million. You need to be breeding in the thousands to get one. If you say have a red Melon and a pigeon blood you will get 50/50 red melons and pigeon bloods. Think as it as if you have a child and that child has got mums eyes, the child doesn't have a mix of the parents coloured eyes, same principle with discus. they are one or the other. But it also get interesting what genes the discus has, but mixing did stands sometimes promotes a lot of peppering as they are not from the range group, eg pigeon x turq, compared to a say red Melon x pigeon. If you get say 2 melons breeding and you get a few odd pigeons than that is because one of the parents parents would of been a pigeon and is in his gens, there had been a lot of research into percentages and the different group of discus. You're not tecnicly cross breeding, as long as there from the same group than you will always get AAA discus. Keep in mind that fry need a shit load of attention, up to 6 months old they need at least one to two water changes daily with 5 feeds a day to get them 15cm plus. First 6 months are very important to try getting AAA discus.

[Mononoke]

Hi all, thanks so much for all the input. I think I will give it a try as my pair are very keen to breed, and I'm excited to see what offspring my lovely little wild-caught (even if it is just one of them) would produce. However the project will have to wait for now, as I only have one tank available for breeding and that's currently being used by my Apistos. As I work full-time and am out of the house for 12 hours 5 days a week, the daily water changes and feeding regime necessary for young Discus is also making me hold back for now. If I get a shed happening where I can set up more tanks auto water changing hardware etc I'll be right into it though.

 

In the meantime, I'm following your journal Angelo, and am keen to read up on necessary literature.