17 replies to this topic

[Fish_Legz]

Hi folks,

This has probably been a thread put on donkey years ago but I thought I'd start if off fresh again.
I've got jarrah floorboards (2"x18") they appear! I've just bought a 6'x2'x2' for all of my cichlids to swim around in but I'm not so sure the floor will hold!
It's a 30yr old house with the old limestone supports underneath with timber joists about a 40cms apart (from what i can see where nails have gone in)
Any idea on how safe it'd be to fill this baby all the way to the top? Oh yeah, it's sitting on a wrought iron stand with 6 legs, each 2.5" square.
I've put a few slabs of jarrah under each leg perpendicular to the floorboards but meh... I don't know if it's going to hold!
On calculations it appears to be be ~630L given you dont fill all the way to the top but with gravel + limestone it could weigh in a lot more (though the volume would decrease also)
Sitting in the lounge room lookin miserable, hope someone's got some ideas!
I've only managed to get one set of legs runing along a joist, the other is about half a ft short of making the other.

Thanks for anyy help at all!

Cliff

[dazzabozza]

Gday Cliff

I have the same sort of house with jarrah boards and raised on limestone. I had two 6x2x2 tanks stacked on top of each other and had no issues. I did place a small piece of wood under each leg to spread the load across at least 4 boards.

I'm not a structural engineer and can't guarantee you have the same luck as me but thought I'd give some feedback


Dazza

[FishGal]

As dazzabozza says he isn't a structural engineer BUT at least he gives you hope that it could and does work, dependent of course on the floor!

If in doubt....get a structural engineer in, peace of mind is worth it when you're talking a 6x2x2 with fish

[siklid]

I had the same size tank in a house in south perth which was about 70 years old, had the tank in my bedroom with fully grown frontosa's fighting and smashing into rocks for the first few nights. pooped myself every time a rock moved. It didn't fall through but didn't trust it at all!!

A friend had a 5x3x2.5 on wooden floors on a second floor with no problems but didn't trust it at all!!

[Fish_Legz]

Hi again all!

Thank you all so much for your feedback, I really appreciate it! I went to work pondering about it all day and that's really given me some glimpse of hope!
2 lots of 6x2x2 is beyond my imagination of setting up but bloody heck, good on you! Would have looked mint!
I've done some reading and lots of people from the US seem to be really into going underneath the house and reinforcing it which sounds like a lot of work!
Perhaps the go is to get a really large person to jump up and down on the spot where the legs are going and see if they fall thru?
As for 2nd floor jobbies, good effort on getting the darn thing up the stairs let alone fill the thing with water and have it stay up there!

Now Dazzabozza! Lets talk tactics! I've got relatively thin floorboards and agree greatly with the idea of spreading out the weight (plinth i think some call the device!)
Have you got the wide jarrah floorboards and spread them out across 4 of them? Or are you talking the joists underneath?
I've currently got them sitting along a joist and the other length hanging out in the middle between a couple of joists running parallel.
The other option i was thinking was to get a door from bunnings or something and slotting it under the entire stand! Shame they don't make jarrah doors

Anyhoo will stop it from becoming a university course - thanks again for everyones help, it's greatly appreciated.
Oh, none of you would happen to be a structural engineer would you?

Thanks again,

Cliff

[Cicolid]

Is there any way to see what size the floor joists are & at what spacings ?
It is probably 4 x 2inch (10x5cm) with 16 inch (40.5cm) spacings

To be safe I personally would get 2 pieces of 4x1 inch (10x2cm) Jarrah boards, make it so that it spans to a joist either side of the tank legs, if the tank is 6ft long (1.8m) then make it 8ft (2.4m) long. Place one piece under front & back legs .

My 2 cents.

Col

[Fish_Legz]

I had the same size tank in a house in south perth which was about 70 years old, had the tank in my bedroom with fully grown frontosa's fighting and smashing into rocks for the first few nights. pooped myself every time a rock moved. It didn't fall through but didn't trust it at all!!

A friend had a 5x3x2.5 on wooden floors on a second floor with no problems but didn't trust it at all!!

That much reminds me of the 100x47x45cm tank i built with 5mm glass... Also instead of puting the sides around the base, it is sitting ontop of the base...
I've only just learnt to accept that $250 excess will get me new clickboard in the extension room! haha.. now when you say had... what happened?! Isn't under the house now issit?
Cheers for your feedback
Cliff

[Fish_Legz]

Is there any way to see what size the floor joists are & at what spacings ?
It is probably 4 x 2inch (10x5cm) with 16 inch (40.5cm) spacings

To be safe I personally would get 2 pieces of 4x1 inch (10x2cm) Jarrah boards, make it so that it spans to a joist either side of the tank legs, if the tank is 6ft long (1.8m) then make it 8ft (2.4m) long. Place one piece under front & back legs .

My 2 cents.

Col

Hi Col,

Greatly appreciate your input! I've just got the measure tape out and your spacing measurement is spot on. Not sure on the size of the joists but I've had alook in the manholey thing under the house and they look about 4"x2". Perhaps a bit taller and a bit narrower though if thats possible?
I think where my plan falls apart is I have the tank going along the joist rather than across. I do go across all the floorboards that sit on the joists tho??
Bugger, it's a bit headachey at the mo! Cheers anyway! Any ideas are more than welcome! The timber across the bottom is a definite which ever way it goes I'd think! Thanks for that!

Cliff

[Cicolid]

You say your tank runs along the joists.
IMO, just follow the above instructions, but run the boards from front to back with a board under each pair of legs.

Col

[RedDevil]

This is a complex topic.
Just bought a new house and putting tanks in my study upstairs which has a concrete slab for a floor. Not willing to take any risks as the house cost me $$$$$$$$$$$ so sent the plans to a structural engineer who as luck would have it also keeps fish (thanks Brett if you happen to be reading this). There is no such thing as an easy calculation as in kg/m2 and it appears to depend on a lot of variables such as position of footings and supporting walls in relation to the tank position.
So my advice is to get advice from a structural engineer unless you want to take the risk or are prepared to replace your floor boards etc in case of a disaster

[Flatliner]

I had my 5x2x2 set up in my lounge in a old fibro floor boarded house in Rivervale for 10 years with no dramas at all but I was watching closly the first time I filled it.
Maybe you could try and support the tank from underneath the floorboards with some timber and bottle jacks
after all thats how they raise old houses for transport on flat bed trucks.
Just a thought!!
Cheers Rob

[ado]

Just a comment/question...

I too had the same concern when installing my 6x2x2, except it was on a tile floor.
But the thought process I had was this...600 odd liters plus some rocks and substrate equals approximately 600 kilograms plus maybe 100-150 kg of rocks/substrate.
So a total of about 700-750 kilos, bearing in mind the actually less kilos of water where volume is taken up by rocks and sand.

So with 6 legs of a stand, each leg has to carry about 116-125 kg, assuming load is spread evenly. Now 125 kg sounds like a lot but it's not really when you think about it.
I mean some people way pretty close to this, and you're rarely concerned that a mass-challenged visitor is going to fall through the floor...

I realise that the pressure is greater because the smaller size of stand feet compared to humans...but still

Maybe I'm simplifying it a bit too much...?

Not saying it's a bad thing to consider, just saying it needs to be looked at realistically.
Just a thought

Cheers
a

[Fish_Legz]

Just a comment/question...

I too had the same concern when installing my 6x2x2, except it was on a tile floor.
But the thought process I had was this...600 odd liters plus some rocks and substrate equals approximately 600 kilograms plus maybe 100-150 kg of rocks/substrate.
So a total of about 700-750 kilos, bearing in mind the actually less kilos of water where volume is taken up by rocks and sand.

So with 6 legs of a stand, each leg has to carry about 116-125 kg, assuming load is spread evenly. Now 125 kg sounds like a lot but it's not really when you think about it.
I mean some people way pretty close to this, and you're rarely concerned that a mass-challenged visitor is going to fall through the floor...

I realise that the pressure is greater because the smaller size of stand feet compared to humans...but still

Maybe I'm simplifying it a bit too much...?

Not saying it's a bad thing to consider, just saying it needs to be looked at realistically.
Just a thought

Cheers
a

Hi Ado,

Cheers for your (and everyone elses) input once again. You've put it into very easy terms to understand and I agree with you. I've have even seen 160kg people walking about and provided I never got any warning about super large people, I'd think the floorboards could handle that pressure! However, the idea of the pressure if you were to say walk or run past the tank (hypothetically speaking) then you may encounter problems in terms of the intensity of force (really do need that structural eng and to cut it a bit finer, I'll perhaps be sensible and go down that path). I must say, I'd be worried if a 140kg person jumped up and down on the spot on one leg (once again, hypothetical!). I've decided to place the tank in a different position as the idea of running them across the joists makes more sense than running parallel on only 2 or 3 (with plinths coming from front to back as Col suggested).
I've just done some thinking and just to get some super thought out weight measurements we'll say:
100kg (aquarium glass) + 600kg (water) + 50kg (stand) + 70kg (limestone) + 60kg (gravel) + 50kg (cannister filters) + 3kg (ornaments)
= ~ 933kg

= ~ 155kg per leg (6 legs) With nothing on the stand aside from the aquarium!
Then we must also assume the stand is 100% square ://
I'll be getting a structural eng in to assess just to be sure but thanks for the help to everyone. I'm sure it'll end up being okay but meh, not worth spending time replacing floorboards! Cheers,

Cliff

[Fish_Legz]

Hi again everyone,

I have spoken to a handy structural engineer mate of mine and have been given the heads up with my jarrah floorboards/joists.
On the basis that there are 4"x2" jarrah joists and 1"thick planks sitting perpendicular to the joists, so long as the legs of the stand are supported by a plinth (as we've all suggested),
the mass of the entire set up will be more than sufficiently supported. I wish I could remember the calculations but unfortunately I don't! The go is though, so long as there isn't any leg sitting perfectly inbetween joists, unsupported by a plinth - the floor will hold (provided the above parameters!)
Game on folks, now I need Vista to get their butt in gear and come and do these venetians!
Oh, and I have decided to go across the joists rather than parallel, just seems I'd get a little bit more sleep at night - despite it being safe goin the other way!
Thank you all for your contributions, it has proven that practical experience can speak for as much as the theory! Mind you, it could always go pear shaped and fall thru when I fill this thing up! Any ideas on fish to put in it now???

Kind regards,
Cliff

[Feesh]

If you're still worried about the ongoing stability of your set-up you could always keep an eye on any adjacent doors window and wall features (like picture rails or cornicing).

Now to go off topic a bit in way of explanation ... A few years ago I helped a mate "lift and lower" a house in bayswater so that we could build a retaining wall and put a garage underneath. In the end the whole project was a huge success but we found some interesting things along the way. When we replaced his old stumps with steel beams we were surprised at just how many of the stumps were actually doing no work at all (like more than half) and when we trued off all the floor from underneath onto the steel beams we found that not a single door in the house would close ! Obviously with a bit of shimming and a lot of swearing the floor at the shimmer everything was fine but I guess the lesson to come out of it those jarrah houses are so strongly built that they are going to show a lot of stress a long time before they are going to have a catastrophic failure.

So my tip would be just to keep a casual eye on your doors. If maybe one day something starts to stick or looks a bit wierd put an unobtrusive pencil mark across it (door-to-frame) come back in 6 months see how much it's moved. But overall I wouldn't be surprised if it moved the house very slightly when you put it in but then stayed rock solid forever after amen.

Good luck and enjoy the fish !


Paul.

BTW if you fill your tank up with water and it shoots straight through the floor i'll be happy to be the first person to come over rub my chin and say 'oh yeah blah blah wouldna done it that way blah blah"

[keenas]

Why not just spread the load out. Instead of 6 legs, make a footprint that is the entire perimeter of the tank. So you end up with a rectatangle foot. You could even add more to the middle of that structure to spread it out more...

[highlucks]

hay mate I had a standard 6 footer that i was worried about sitting on 100+ yr old floors. As a result I cut out a piece of mdf 30mm thick by the dimensions of the tank to sit under the stand never ever had a drama, even with water spillages and the like.

[Tha_Muffin_Man]

I have a 6X2X2 in pretty much the same style house... I dropped it down with no modifications and no problems.. You're welcome to come see for yourself...
Jad