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brown peppermints ?


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#41 Link 2 Hell

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 06:46 AM

Hi All
I have been reading this thread and looked at the VCS thread
As per Tammy's instructions this is what I consider constructive, so here goes a history lesson on what I know as L043 A.leucastictus

The fish Geof was selling as "Brown Peppermints" (A.leucostictus) is what were produced by a Melb breeder and released to the hobby about 3 or so yrs ago, I know because I know the breeder (as do most people in VCS & EDAS clubs in Melb) and I bought the first released bags of fish at the VCS auction when in Melb
The fish were ID'ed as L043 A.leucastictus from the information available at the time a rather ordinary pic in Aqualog and a confirming pic of a fish labelled Ancistrus leucostictus in Axelrods Catfish Atlas page 748 bottom right corner


There were no other pics available that could be found ...... even Planet Catfish had no image

This fish was only traded as L043 or A.leucostictus from the original source, as with everything it has been given a couple of trade names of "Orange Spot" (confused with the P.gibbiceps of a similar trade name) and now "Brown Peppermint" (also new to me :\ )- common or trade names suck like a Hoover in situations like this
Recently it was labelled as L110, but what I consider L043 is different in the spotting pattern to the L110 offered by AI (is the L110 at AI correct in it's ID ?) as can be seen by the pics on Geof's post of fish the same size

This is a pic of the L043 I first got at about 7cm size


This is a pic of one of the group at about 10cm size


Yes these fish can colour up from washed out muddy brown to a rich dark chocolate base colour with white spots (hence the leucostictus) depending on mood
My fish are around the 15cm size now

Other pics from sites seem to vary in what is A.leucostictus
from this one that conforms to my reference of L043
Akwa foto altlas pic

to this one that looks like a common Bristle
FishLinks Central pic

These fish that were sold originally under L043 breed true to type form with NO variation of appearance in the markings
ATM I still hold to L043 as a valid ID more than L110 but as with most Loricardae the ID can be subject to change

Re the VCS post
I can only reach a conclusion with the VCS post that is showing on their forum now, and consider Geofs reply as over the top as it shows to be only Bilby Jnr having an opinion by questioning the "Trade name" with laughing emoticons ......... Jezzzzzzzzz thicken your skin
If it had more content in the 5 minutes before it was edited then there could be justification in the reply by Geof and I retract my comment otherwise I stand by my opinion
As a past moderator on SCP forums and looking at things as they stand I would consider it harsh to be banned for a non flaming non trolling opinion on a forum
These are my opinions and may not be accepted by all that read this thread

L2H

Edited by: Tammy Brisbane at: 7/4/04 1:13 pm


#42 Geoffagus

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 07:33 AM

Mmm

I think that "executing" me or whoever you think first used this name may be just a little extreme.(I hope:lol )

I know that there are quite a few people here and interstate with fish that are the same as what I described in my first post as "brown peppermints".
After seeing the fish at AI a while ago described as "red spot bristle nose" I knew that what I had at home looked nothing like that.
So I researched as best as I could and found that there were few resemblances between our fish and L110.

I, nor anyone that I know made up the name "brown peppermint" but i've had the fish for so long now and every time I talk about it with friends or am trying to describe the fish to someone I say "it looks like a brown peppermint". Hence the original ad.

As far as I can see my only mistake may have been leaving out a ? after the name. Or should I have just closed my eyes to the fact that maybe they are a different fish (in my opinion, and many around me) than what everyone has been selling them as!

I would like to see more open minds on the forums to other peoples opinions as I feel that I was lucky enough to have the knowledge and resources to defend myself against some things that were said that if not cleared up would have made me look the fool. Basically what I am saying is that if I was a newbe, I may just of been turned away from the hobby as no-one likes to look the fool in public!:o
And thats all we need, to turn more people away!

For me and those that have the fish, my only question is what the hell are we supposed to call them then when the time comes to advertise these fish for sale?

If I am proved to be wrong about anything that I have said then I will happily admit to any errors.

I like many others only want to see the correct classifications put to these fish!:)

Looking forward to seeing some more pics. and or some information. Every little piece can help properly id these fish! :good

Edited by: Tammy Brisbane at: 6/30/04 8:17 am


#43 Geoffagus

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 04:46 AM

Tammy, thanks for editing my post. I totally understand where your coming from.:o .
I was a little hasty and still a little upset about the whole thing and believe me don't want any more negativity just as much as you. Once again I do apologize.

L2H thanks so much for some factual information.
I must of been typing my post when you posted yours so that why it's out of whack!

From what I here your a geo. freak like myself and I would love to have a chat on the subject of sth. Ams. hopefully one day soon.

To your question whether AI's fish are correct, as far as I can tell the fish are right (my opinion only) according to the research that I have done.
I also am led to believe that they are locally bred so it would be nice if anyone knows the breeder, say it would be greatly appreciated if they, could supply a pic!

There seems to be so many variations of the L043.
I couldn't get the pics of the 7 & 10 cm.
In the old aqualog it's not a good pic at all but you can see numerous spots, much more than our fish.
In the new aqualog the fish shows few resemblances.
Once again it shows lots more spotting and a white edge in the tail. Also our fish has a more lyre type tail.

I am not trying to insinuate anything but I noticed you used the word "produced" and was hoping for clarification?

If the fish is still unidentified or a variant of L043 then maybe someone else can also add some more.:good

Thanks again L2H.:good







Edited by: Geoffagus  at: 6/30/04 8:56 pm


#44 NewChemistry

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 04:52 AM

As a Victorian fishkeeper I have serious doubts that anything in my above posts was derogatory towards Vic fishkeepers. What would be the point? I merely wanted to let Alan know we aren't all as stupid as the occasional idiot who happens to live in vicky'toria...

The fish in the pics do look different from each other...but I have seen so many different colour variations offered as "Orange-spot bns" its impossible to tell, everything from "common" bns pattern with a few small orange dots on the fins, to fish that look similar to both sets of pics above, as well as a few that look EXACTLY like peppermints w/ orange dots on the fins.

They are not L182.

I must say that whatever they are, Geoff, you have some nice looking fish. "Brown peppermint" sounds like an insulting name for them...perhaps you could use "Chocolate peppermints"?

The problem with Loricariidae is that many (read nearly all) of them are still awaiting proper classification and until that happens we are stuck with trying our hand at identification from the maze of common names, original descriptions, Lnos and whatever else we can find...despite all our knowledge, we aren't scientests or taxonomists. I don't think many of us here have gone out and collected this fish in the wild, or have access to museum records or have the authority to declare we discovered this fish and declare it shall be known as Anistrus somewhatorangespoticus, do we?:rollin

So until many of these species are conclusively identified by people in the know, we are left to our of devices...unfortunently our own devices seem to lead to constant disagreements over which fish is which. Thank god Corydoras are slightly less popular then Loricariidae, because I can't tell Corydoras jullii from Corydoras trilineatus!



#45 mrseby

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 09:32 PM


Hayyyyyyyyyyyyyy
NOOOOOOOOOOOO
("Brown peppermint" sounds like an insulting name for them...perhaps you could use "Chocolate peppermints"?)

That’s the whole point !!!!!!!!!!! Don't just give it another name !!!!!!!!!!></span>:

This is what I think the biggest issue is!!! Not so much if you have another type...or if your from VIC/SYD etc.
That I doubt from what I have seen and read ....Does not mean I’m right!!
But don’t bloody chuck in another name ...></span>:

So much time/money and research has gone into the L classification and even this is way from being correct ..But it’s the best tool we have ATM.
Use the L names and or the already common name of orange spotted!!!!!
Until otherwise proven different.

If you guys are really serious about wanting to ID these fish well the only true way to do this is via Dissecting fish in question doing the proper scale/fin/ray counts etc etc
(You will sadly have to sacrifice some of your babies for the good of all)

This is very costly and time consuming …But if you get a graduate wanting to do his/her thesis or final term project you might be lucky.

This in Australia is very limited as we have very few ichthyology / Fish taxonomist in this country ...:(

When my wife did her degrees and we were involved in Native Fish (ANGFA)
The main expert she worked with was
Dr Walter Ivantsoff
Senior Research Fellow

Biological Sciences
Macquarie University
Sydney 2109
NSW, Australia
Sadly he has very little interest in classifying Catfish...

Hardy heads etc are more of his interest..But I’m sure he can point you in the right direction to a college that might have an interest in catfish.

The Fish Fauna of Arid Australia
Dr. Walter Ivantsoff
it may come to many as a surprise but Australia's inland
waterways are home to a rich and diverse fish fauna. In deed, the
Biological Sciences Museum is currently exhibiting Desert
Rainbow Fish and Finke Hardheads - one of the species
described by Dr Walter Ivantsoff who will be presenting this
interesting seminar


I hope this helps ….PLEASE PLEASE DON’T JUST PICK A NAME!!!!:good

Maybe the Aquarium/Fish industry in Australia can put their heads/$$ together and sponsor a student to carry out this type of work ..This person could also be involved in the allowable importation list …JUST an Idea !!!!
But it will cost $$$$





#46 Geoffagus

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Posted 02 July 2004 - 01:52 AM

Thanks mrseby, I'm glad it wasn't me that had to reply to the "Chocolate" addition, and I must say you have added some excellent ideas.:good :good :good

Unfortunately I have already put a fair amount of time, effort and even some money (3 x fish from AI) into this thread alone just so people would listen, and realise that we are or possibly looking at 2 different fish.

As helpful and informative as L2H was I don't believe L043 to be the fish in question either.

My only concern is that when you say we should sell the fish as "orange spots", if the purchaser has both types and then spawns them then are we not cross-breeding?

If you all wish for them to be sold as "orange spots or L110" then I would feel that to be a shame as these are beautiful fish and they deserve a name of their own. The answer to this I don't know, and the only people that can answer this are well listed in the post above.

I can only hope that people are now aware the we are looking at 2 different fish. (or at least a variant.)

Cheers
Geoff...



#47 NewChemistry

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Posted 02 July 2004 - 02:16 AM

Neither of you appear to have any sense of humour

My point remains the same, until all these Lnos etc are properly classified we need an easily recognizable name for some fish.
How about we call the fish in question common x orange spot:bd



#48 Link 2 Hell

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 08:55 PM

Hi All
Produced = bred from his original fish group :)

We all seem to want the same thing here and that is the correct ID on these fish and any others that have never been confirmed during their appearance in the hobby
I don't feel that the opinions are personal where there is a point of contention just a different viewpoint

Unfortunately the problem with L species is the lack of ID
from the source of supply :\ and the varients of a basic
form especially in Ancistrus species
You only have to look at the number of Black/white spotted species there are

I feel a pic of the adult L110 from AI's supplier would go a long way to help answer the question of these being 2 different species, as anyone that has kept Ancistrus know there is a definite difference in colour and patterns from juvenile to adult in most species

Yes Geof I do like my Geo's

L2H


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