169 replies to this topic

[sydad]

Nitrates don't pose a problem if doing a fishless cycle as you should be doing a 100% change once cycled, a day before putting fish in.
Your PH is looking low and this could stall the cycle. (BicarbSoda is a good buffer, though a more permanent option is crushed coral to keep the PH up.) Ideal cycling levels are low 8's.

Your suggestion of a 100% water change is, to my mind completely without basis. I would like to know the reasoning behind it.

As for using crushed coral to keep the pH up: this is an acceptable practice for hard-water fishes such as rift valley cichlids, since a concommitant increase in general hardness will occur. However Waruna has indicated an interest in discus and altum angels. Neither of these will appreciate rising hardness levels. The discus would probably survive; particularly if aquarium strains. Altums on the other hand would certainly suffer greatly, to the point of probably failing to survive.

Syd.

[Juls]

Corys are certainly a option, given the type of fish your keeping larger corys will be a preferable option, albeit expensive one, but with altums, wild discus, L numbers ect on the list some $40-60 each corys shouldn't offend!

I hope you can see that your altum idea is shaping what you can and can't keep in the tank, at full size a school of them us stunning but they are a big fish that is an excellent fast hunter and will take out smaller fish with ease.

If you went discus only then a huge number of smaller fish options open up to you, the altums mean all tank mates must be big and sturdy, but at the same time pose no threat to the altums in fin nipping or bullying behavior. You can count out anything under 6-7cm with the altums, discus more like 3-5cm.

Vebas have some baby altums in there planted tank display I'm waiting patiently for them to get big at which point most of the little fish will disappear. Although I somewhat expect that vebas might sell them on before that happens. It will be alot easier to remove the altums before they remove the small fish than try remove the small fish before the altums eat them.

Something I have experienced with normal angels and discus is that should a angel decide to join in on the discus heirachy battles and fights that are always going on in groups of discus, that the angels always win, and discus can be hurt, possibly bad enough to eventually cause death. I hope you (or anyone else) don't experience this, it might be a idea to have a backup tank as a safe haven should a battle erupt and your discus are hitting the lids and walls of the tank trying to escape the feisty angelfish.

In the wild these fish can easily get away from each other, however they would never be subjected to a scenario where they are forced into each others group heirachy by limitations of space. Should either decide to breed in your display you can expect potential problems, it's unlikely the angelfish will be interested in being chased away by discus particularily when there is no where to go, and simply fight back. Yes they live together in the wild, but not within the confines of a cubic metre. Yes they might swim together or near each other, but they don't go home with each other every night, they don't get involved in each others family squables, but in the confines of a cubic metre glass box they are pissing in each others pockets, literally!

It's not impossible to keep discus and angels together, but consider that you might be able to provide your new pets a better home if they don't have to fight to be top cichlid of there measly cubic metre of earth you have provided.

If you have ever tried to keep discus in a group setting within a display setup where they feel comfortable enough the cichlid nature begins to really shine, the fighting and chasing is constant, although a clear leader of the heirachy is usually quickly formed the 2,3,4 positions are constantly contested in a daily never ending battle, face to face lip locking isn't unusual, constant little chases are always on but can get very serious at times, I've watched my discus pin a newly introduced tankmates hard against the cover glass almost out of the water pecking at the side of it's body I removed the said discus so I will never know where they just telling it who is boss or was the intention death? Generally speaking these little fights are fairly eventless, it's when a angelfish gets involved that things go wrong, angels swim faster, are more agile and far more aggressive so they generally win, even if they are half the size.

I'm looking forward to seeing the tank with fish, it's fun stocking big tanks but I have found out the hard way, decide on the right fish first time, it's not always easy to get the fish back out without tearing the whole tank apart to catch A poorly thought out addition.

Juls

[waruna]

Corys are certainly a option, given the type of fish your keeping larger corys will be a preferable option, albeit expensive one, but with altums, wild discus, L numbers ect on the list some $40-60 each corys shouldn't offend!

Not trying to be arrogant, we supply (NLS) to over 200 retailers and wholesalers. Almost everything i've purchased are from our customers, this really helped. If it wasn't for them i would have gone for a much smaller tank/setup.

Managed to find 25 Corydoras Aeneus Neon Gold Stripe from QLD, they are on hold till the tank is cycled.

I really like the whip tail catfish, Farlowella Catfish and Clown Plecos (L104). I read about the whip tails and they seem ok for planted tanks. Does anyone keep L104 in planted tanks? Are they safe to keep in my setup?

I hope you can see that your altum idea is shaping what you can and can't keep in the tank, at full size a school of them us stunning but they are a big fish that is an excellent fast hunter and will take out smaller fish with ease.

If you went discus only then a huge number of smaller fish options open up to you, the altums mean all tank mates must be big and sturdy, but at the same time pose no threat to the altums in fin nipping or bullying behavior. You can count out anything under 6-7cm with the altums, discus more like 3-5cm.

Vebas have some baby altums in there planted tank display I'm waiting patiently for them to get big at which point most of the little fish will disappear. Although I somewhat expect that vebas might sell them on before that happens. It will be alot easier to remove the altums before they remove the small fish than try remove the small fish before the altums eat them.

Something I have experienced with normal angels and discus is that should a angel decide to join in on the discus heirachy battles and fights that are always going on in groups of discus, that the angels always win, and discus can be hurt, possibly bad enough to eventually cause death. I hope you (or anyone else) don't experience this, it might be a idea to have a backup tank as a safe haven should a battle erupt and your discus are hitting the lids and walls of the tank trying to escape the feisty angelfish.

In the wild these fish can easily get away from each other, however they would never be subjected to a scenario where they are forced into each others group heirachy by limitations of space. Should either decide to breed in your display you can expect potential problems, it's unlikely the angelfish will be interested in being chased away by discus particularily when there is no where to go, and simply fight back. Yes they live together in the wild, but not within the confines of a cubic metre. Yes they might swim together or near each other, but they don't go home with each other every night, they don't get involved in each others family squables, but in the confines of a cubic metre glass box they are pissing in each others pockets, literally!

It's not impossible to keep discus and angels together, but consider that you might be able to provide your new pets a better home if they don't have to fight to be top cichlid of there measly cubic metre of earth you have provided.

If you have ever tried to keep discus in a group setting within a display setup where they feel comfortable enough the cichlid nature begins to really shine, the fighting and chasing is constant, although a clear leader of the heirachy is usually quickly formed the 2,3,4 positions are constantly contested in a daily never ending battle, face to face lip locking isn't unusual, constant little chases are always on but can get very serious at times, I've watched my discus pin a newly introduced tankmates hard against the cover glass almost out of the water pecking at the side of it's body I removed the said discus so I will never know where they just telling it who is boss or was the intention death? Generally speaking these little fights are fairly eventless, it's when a angelfish gets involved that things go wrong, angels swim faster, are more agile and far more aggressive so they generally win, even if they are half the size.

I'm looking forward to seeing the tank with fish, it's fun stocking big tanks but I have found out the hard way, decide on the right fish first time, it's not always easy to get the fish back out without tearing the whole tank apart to catch A poorly thought out addition.

Juls

Thanks for your advice Juls:) I'd rather keep Altums and limit what i can keep or not keep them at all. It's more likely i'll get my Discus first, I decided on 12 WC Greens, have spread the word, hopefully they will come soon. There's still two Altums left in a tank at Vebas, soooo tempted to bring them once the tank is cycled, not sure if it is a good idea tho..?! From what i've read it's always best to buy them in large colonies.


I'm hoping finish planting in the next two weeks. Crinum and the Red Crypts will go in this weekend and what ever i can get my hands on..

[Juls]

Sounds good looking forward to seeing it up and running, I would try to put all the cichlids in at the same time, less likely to have a group rejection of a single individual.

You can add them slowly over time but the new arrivals won't be greeted kindly by the existing cichlids.

If you have to do it that way, make sure any additions are very healthy and fiesty so they can hold there own, if the fish is stressed when u add it, it's likely to get harrassed into hiding, then unable to get it's fair share of food will succumb to illness which could spread through the tank.

I'm sure you will get hours of enjoyment from the discus watching them bicker between themselves and constantly contesting there position in the heirachy.

Juls

[waruna]

It's going to be a bit difficult adding all at the fish at the same time, will try tho..! I'm sure i will enjoy once this is stocked, been a while since i've had fish and i'm getting a bit impatient.

Test reading results for today are:
Ammonia: 1ppm
Nitrite: 1ppm
Nitrate: 20ppm

Also added to my order, 1 x Farlowella Catfish, 1 x Long Nose Whiptail (S.Barbatum), 1 x Royal Whiptail (S.Panamense), 3 x Otocinclus. Will add more plants this weekend.

[waruna]

Did a 30% WC yesterday so i could plant the rest of the "permanent" plants i will be keeping. It's heavily planted now, not sure if i will keep all of them once they start to grow. It's my first planted tank so i'll have to wait and see how the plants are going to grow.

The readings this morning;
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 1ppm
Nitrate 5ppm

I found 12 WC Tefe Green Discus, trying to find out if they are "Gold spotted" or not. If they are it will be good but either way i'm going to grab them. They around 8cm and still in quarantine. Will be released next Thursday. Most likely i'll have them in a couple of weeks

[JimmyTheFish]

Sounds good and nice find with the Tefe discus. The catfish you've added will be a great addition. I have 2x long-nosed whiptails, 2x L134's, 5 otocinclus and 10 Corydoras sterbai in my planted tank. No harm to any of the plants although the L134's tend to uproot anything smaller than Echinodorus tenellus as a forground plant. I just obtained 4x Peruvian "Altum" Angels this week and they are an awesome addition to my planted tank. Good luck and I await with much anticipation a pic of the final product with fish added.

[waruna]

Hi, sorry i'm not trying to spoil your excitement, are you sure these fish are from Peru and they are Altums? They are not Scalare?

Have you got any pics?

http://www.finarama....vianscalare.htm

Thanks for the tip, i'm staying away from L numbers, don't want to risk it.

Ok i need some advice, my PH is 6.6, and KH is 2. I know Co2 drops PH, does this mean when i run my Co2 system next week this PH level will be even lower? Is KH up the only way to raise the PH? Since the water change last night i have not added any KH up. Instead of filtered water should i just use tap water?

What is the ideal PH range i should aim for before i start injecting Co2?

Thanks in advance.

Ok I'm editing this post


According to this chart my Co2 levels are at 14.8ppm.

http://www.aquatic-p...khph_table.html

To get the 30ppm level of Co2 i need to drop my PH to about 6.3? Is this correct?

[Brett]

Hi Waruna,

CO2 combines with water to make hydrogen ions and bicarbonate.

CO2 + H20 <-> H+ + HCO3-
The reaction goes in both directions depending on the concentrations in the water.

So when you add C02 to water you increase the concentration of H+ ( ie it becomes more acidic) and the pH falls.

In fact, monitering the pH is how you estimate the CO2 concentration.

Having said all that, I am not sure why you are concerned. My understanding is that you haven't added any fish yet, and your plants won't care.

Cheers
Brett

[waruna]

No i haven't added any fish yet. I'm trying to understand this process before i add any fish. The big pieces of wood that i have in the tank must be making my water acidic too. Trying to figure out hwo much Co2 is enough, while making sure the PH and KH is in a healthy range..!

[fourdapostle]

As for using crushed coral to keep the pH up: this is an acceptable practice for hard-water fishes such as rift valley cichlids, since a concommitant increase in general hardness will occur. However Waruna has indicated an interest in discus and altum angels. Neither of these will appreciate rising hardness levels. The discus would probably survive; particularly if aquarium strains. Altums on the other hand would certainly suffer greatly, to the point of probably failing to survive.

No way will crushed coral be any good for altums (real ones), or discus...Ph for the greens wc, will be around 5 correct me if I am wrong Syd, browns w/c around 6-6.5, about the same for altums...personally I don't think any wild caught discus or Altum (real ones Orinoco region), will survive, they will def die albeit a slow painful way. imo

Edited by fourdapostle, 05 March 2011 - 02:12 PM.

[waruna]

My knowledge is pretty minimum, even still i wouldn't have used CC.

[fourdapostle]

That is good, keep looking keep reading thats what i do....

[JimmyTheFish]

Hi Waruna,

Correct, they are not "true" altums, but a variety of wild caught scalare that have the same body shape and colouration as altums, but don't grow to the same size (height) and they come from Peru and not the Orinoco, which I assume is what you are after. They are much cheaper than true altums, and I'm very happy with them as I typically don't like the mutation angels that are sold these days. Mine look exactly like those in that link you posted.

Now as for pH the info you have been given above is spot on. With the fish you are going to acquire and $$ you are spending if you are worried about the pH, an easy fix is to get a pH controller. Its quite easy you plug the CO2 valve solenoid into the power controller unit and set the desired pH and it will turn on and off the CO2 accordingly to what you have set. As for the kH, I was advised to use tap water with a conditioner additive (to remove chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals) as the Perth water has a near neutral pH and is slightly hard so I've found it gives a good base to work down from when using CO2 for growing plants.

[waruna]

Now as for pH the info you have been given above is spot on. With the fish you are going to acquire and $$ you are spending if you are worried about the pH, an easy fix is to get a pH controller. Its quite easy you plug the CO2 valve solenoid into the power controller unit and set the desired pH and it will turn on and off the CO2 accordingly to what you have set. As for the kH, I was advised to use tap water with a conditioner additive (to remove chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals) as the Perth water has a near neutral pH and is slightly hard so I've found it gives a good base to work down from when using CO2 for growing plants.
Ok thank you for that. Please post some pics of the tank, i'd love to see it.

I'm still trying to understand this, plants like a PH of around 6.8, when i add Co2 this will drop even further, and in turn lower the KH. How will my plants cope with this? Or is it really a concern only when you add buffers to change the PH and KH?

Tank after planting some more, i think i'm going to leave it at this and see how they are going to grow, then maybe change it at a later date. I put the Crinum on the left next to the wood, hopefully it will pick up soon. Bit disappointed that the plants on the left side is not as good as the ones on the right..

[Brett]

plants like a PH of around 6.8

I am not sure where you read this, but plants are like fish and different species all have there own preferences. Generally speaking though most plants are happy with a broad range of pH, say from 6-8.

when i add Co2 this will drop even further, and in turn lower the KH

Again this is not correct, while adding CO2 will lower your pH, it will not appreciably change your kH.

There is good information about pH, kH, etc in The Krib (yes I know its old but chemistry doesn't change).

In short we use buffers to minimise pH swings when we add chemicals (whether they be tannins from the wood, NH4 from the fish or CO2 injection). The prefered system is carbonates, as all the other buffers have problems of there own in planted tanks. You can raise the concentration of carbonates, increasing the buffering capacity of your water by a number of means. I am not exactly sure what kH-Up is , but I presume its a form of carbonate.

as the Perth water has a near neutral pH and is slightly hard

This varies greatly in different suburbs in Perth, my water is relatively soft and has pH 8

Cheers
Brett

Edited by Brett, 05 March 2011 - 09:48 PM.

[waruna]

Ok thanks for directing me to the Krib, i have enough reading for the long weekend:-)

I used Aquasonic carbonate Hardness generator, but not when i changed my water last time.

Thanks.

[waruna]

Ok managed to put a few hours of reading this afternoon. I came across a couple of very good easy to read and understand articles

The aquarium nitrogen cycle:
http://www.americana...ogen_Cycle.html


Aquarium chemistry; PH/KH/GH and Calcium
http://www.americana...AquariumKH.html

I know all this was suggested to me before, i have a better understanding of this now, so thanks to everyone for their comments.

I understand the PH is not a huge concern at the moment but because the KH is not high enough there is a risk of my PH fluctuating, and therefore i need to stabilize my PH by raising the KH levels, buffering capacity. The ideal KH range for Discus is 50ppm or 3 on the chart. This comes back to buffers, not all buffers are safe since some seem to contain phosphates. I purchased Aquasonic Carbonate Generator, 40g raised my PH from 6.6 to 6.8 and my KH from 2 to 4. There is no information on whether Aquasonic generator has any phosphate, does anyone know?

Would like to know what everyone else is using?

[Brett]

Hello Waruna,

I doubt Aquasonics Carbonate Generator uses phosphates. Most products use either carbonates or phophates, and the name would suggest that this one uses carbonates.
It should tell you on the box, but many aquarium products seem to neglect this vital information.

Cheers
Brett

[waruna]

Hi Brett, Oliver confirmed it, there's no phosphates in Aquasonic Carbonate generator..

PH dropped again to 6.6 and the KH was at 2 again this morning. The good news is my Nitrite went to 0 yesterday evening. I put 17 Bleeding Hearts in the tank this afternoon, they seem fine. An hour after they kept following me around, for a feed I think..!

I added 40g of Carbonate this morning, PH is 6.8 and the KH is 4. Obviously AS is dropping the PH and the KH. Will test regularly...