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Advice On Murky Water Please :(


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#1 Virt

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:44 PM

Hey guys, I have had a 6 foot up and running for about 6 months now and it has never seemed to be 100% clear.
I have sort of let it run rampant and not worried too much about the murkiness, figuring diatoms or something (there was loads of silicon when I built it all) and let it run its course.
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The water has become browny-green and murky, I can see the tiny little particles floating around in the sun light, visibility would be about 0% after looking through it length wise (6 feet). Will get some pics up soon (done!)
Now I'm finally fed up with it and need some advice and/or ideas to try.

The tank is a Walstad tank with a base sub of sandy soil and potting soil mixture with a gravel cap, the substrate seemed to be fairly clear after about a week of settling so I don't think its the substrate causing it.
Tank is heavily planted and lit by 3 MH lamps (2x75w and 1x150w) for 2 3 hour periods a day with a 2 hour break in between (in which some LEDs run solely for visibility), water is filtered through 2 1200l/h canisters and a 1 stage sump tank filter, circulation is provided by 2 3000l/h powerheads, which I have made sure are not stirring up the substrate.
All stock is healthy and thriving, No3 is nearly 0 and Po4 is minimal, no ammonia or nitrite of course.
I have a 36w UV steriliser with appropriate flow rate pump coming along at some point so will see if it makes a difference (yes I know there's a lot of controversy surrounding UV in FW tanks).
I have made several 50% WCs to try and clear it up but it doesn't seem to do much
My next thing to try is activated carbon in the filters, does anyone know where I can get a good source of it? I am near success, SoR.

Any help or ideas would be appreciated guys, thanks!

EDIT: pics now up, looks worse than I remembered sad.gif
its a little greener looking than in person due to the MHs still warming up, but still terrible.....

Edited by Virt, 31 January 2013 - 12:07 PM.


#2 Westie

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 01:37 PM

Virt come see me and I'll give you new Activated Carbon in a media bag. Give that a trick and see how you go

#3 Kent84

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:30 PM

Not sure if this will help but i had the same problem with my fish tank. It was always murky and i thought it was the Up aqua soil getting stirred around. I even bought a Eheim 250 classic for the tank but i solved the problem before i receive the Eheim from the post(bought online). My tank is a bit different it has a build in filtration system at the back of the tank so what i did was, i added filtration wool into a mesh bag and put it into the back where the sponge and bioballs are. Within a day the water turn crystal clear. Not sure how you can do that with a canister >.<. Hopes it helps somehow.


Edited by Kent84, 03 May 2013 - 10:32 PM.


#4 bigjohnnofish

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:48 AM

seeing the fork in the bottom could it be a zuchinni cloud ??? or an ammonia spike in progress ???


#5 sandgroper

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:29 AM

Purigen is better than carbon but the UV will fix it, also a diatom filter will do the job also.

#6 Mr_docfish

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 08:58 AM

Its is just an algae bloom.
A small UV would fix it, even a 9watt unit.
36watt is overkill for that volume - but that is up to you - hope you have room to fit it in.
I have an Eheim 2180 on 1300 litres with 3 x 150 MH and a 9watt uv on one suction hose (~800/h) and I know when the globe goes - it goes green again... Change the globe, and clears up within the week - you may need a flocculant to help pickup the dead algae cells if the media in your filters are not fine enough.
You can pick up a UV today from Aquotix - fair price for a quality unit. wink.gif

Edited by Mr_docfish, 02 February 2013 - 09:00 AM.


#7 Buccal

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 05:12 PM

When you mentioned sunlight shining through and seeing visible particles, then it's a dead give away to the cause of the problem.
Never place tanks in areas that are subjected to direct sunlight or high light levels.
Extreme light and the waiste that fish produce are a invite for algae growth, and rapidly at that.
If no alternative for tank positioning, then the UV light works wonders rectifying the problem as already strongly recommended.
Don't forget your water changes to, which contributes to clean water keeping down disolved solids.

#8 Virt

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:46 AM

Thanks to all for the replies!

QUOTE (Kent84 @ Feb 1 2013, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...."i added filtration wool into a mesh bag and put it into the back where the sponge and bioballs are. Within a day the water turn crystal clear. Not sure how you can do that with a canister >.<. Hopes it helps somehow."...

Thanks Kent, cannisters are pretty easy to add media to, I have a big 'ol bag of carbon in one of them now thanks to Jason82, the other media consists of sponge, ceramics, bioballs and wool.

QUOTE (bigjohnnofish @ Feb 2 2013, 12:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
seeing the fork in the bottom could it be a zuchinni cloud ??? or an ammonia spike in progress ???

Cheers Johnno, given the tank size and zucchini size I doubt that would be the cause(though it could be a contributor), what exactly is a zucchini cloud?
Also ammonia is zero, all day every day, my plants make sure of that wink.gif I test everything (ammo, nit, phos, copper, etc) whenever I have any doubts.

QUOTE (Mr_docfish @ Feb 2 2013, 08:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Its is just an algae bloom.
A small UV would fix it, even a 9watt unit.
36watt is overkill for that volume - but that is up to you - hope you have room to fit it in.
I have an Eheim 2180 on 1300 litres with 3 x 150 MH and a 9watt uv on one suction hose (~800/h) and I know when the globe goes - it goes green again... Change the globe, and clears up within the week - you may need a flocculant to help pickup the dead algae cells if the media in your filters are not fine enough.
You can pick up a UV today from Aquotix - fair price for a quality unit. wink.gif

Cheers, Doc, I am more and more convinced that this is the case as I go on, you have helped quell my doubts tongue.gif I tend to overkill on everything wink.gif Ill run the UV through the sump tank so there should be plenty of room in there. What exactly is a flocculant? fancy name for filter media or a chemical that binds organics?

QUOTE (Buccal @ Feb 2 2013, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When you mentioned sunlight shining through and seeing visible particles, then it's a dead give away to the cause of the problem.
Never place tanks in areas that are subjected to direct sunlight or high light levels.
Extreme light and the waiste that fish produce are a invite for algae growth, and rapidly at that.
If no alternative for tank positioning, then the UV light works wonders rectifying the problem as already strongly recommended.
Don't forget your water changes to, which contributes to clean water keeping down disolved solids.

Cheers Buccal, its a 1.8m tank that gets about 10cm^2 of sunlight for about an hour a day, while sunlight may be a contributor, it is only a very minimal one.
Any fish waste is quickly absorbed by plants.



Thanks to all for the help, it looks like the UV sterilizer will do the job, its on its way so hopefully I will see it soon, once its up and running I will report back with good news!

Cheers,
-Virt

#9 Virt

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:13 PM

Update on this:
It has been 2 weeks with a 36w UV steriliser (with correct flow rate pump) running and longer with carbon sitting in the filter, still no change, water is murky as ever sad.gif

#10 sandgroper

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:34 PM

Is the UV working, can you see a light source coming from it at the ends, may have a bad globe. The UV if working correctly should of fixed the algae bloom in a blink of an eye. A diatom filter would also fix it in about an hour.

#11 Westie

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:58 PM

wow 2 weeks and not better huh.gif I would take a sample of the water to my LFS

#12 Kent84

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 12:14 PM

I forgot to mention my tank had UV light where the water returns as well. That didn't help with the murky water. I know Magic Clear by Aqua Master will clear it all up in an hour or so but with the tank size like yours, you will be wasting way too much money for thw weekly dosage. I still recommend you to get another external filter to go on it. Like mine, my substrate is breaking down and releasing way too much debris into the water.

Edited by Kent84, 27 February 2013 - 12:15 PM.


#13 Virt

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:40 PM

QUOTE (sandgroper @ Feb 26 2013, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is the UV working, can you see a light source coming from it at the ends, may have a bad globe. The UV if working correctly should of fixed the algae bloom in a blink of an eye. A diatom filter would also fix it in about an hour.

Yeah UV is running properly, its driving me nuts why its not clearing.

QUOTE (Jason82 @ Feb 26 2013, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
wow 2 weeks and not better huh.gif I would take a sample of the water to my LFS


I test for more than my LFS does anyway, I will test myself tonight and post results, if anything looks iffy I might get LFS to test also.


QUOTE (Kent84 @ Feb 27 2013, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I forgot to mention my tank had UV light where the water returns as well. That didn't help with the murky water. I know Magic Clear by Aqua Master will clear it all up in an hour or so but with the tank size like yours, you will be wasting way too much money for thw weekly dosage. I still recommend you to get another external filter to go on it. Like mine, my substrate is breaking down and releasing way too much debris into the water.


Yeah would rather not dump chems in anyway, and yeah it could be certain parts of my substrate breaking down still though it looks so much like algae (the green).


Looks like I will run all my water tests and clean the crap out of my canisters, otherwise I'm running out of options.... will keep this updated!


#14 Mr_docfish

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:34 AM

Please allow me to test and check the water for free - the UV should have killed off the algae - it is up ro the filter to pick up the dead algae cells - if you bring me a jar full of the water, I can determine the problem and work out a cure for you on the spot at the least cost...

Edited by Mr_docfish, 28 February 2013 - 12:35 AM.


#15 Mattymak

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:42 PM

do a big water change?

#16 Virt

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:56 PM

H'okay, here the results:
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Phosphate: 0.6 (possible problem)
And I seem to have an ammonia spike now so I will be doing a 50% change tonight or tomorrow anyway.

will also check tap water for phosphates

Doc, I appreciate the help and will bring in some water for you when I get a chance.

#17 Mr_docfish

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:18 PM

Looking forward to it.....

#18 Buccal

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 09:28 PM

QUOTE (Virt @ Feb 28 2013, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
H'okay, here the results:
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Phosphate: 0.6 (possible problem)
And I seem to have an ammonia spike now so I will be doing a 50% change tonight or tomorrow anyway.

will also check tap water for phosphates

Doc, I appreciate the help and will bring in some water for you when I get a chance.

If your system has not balanced out yet,, (obviously not being no nitrates and a ammo spike occurring),,, do not water change.
You need it to spike with ammo to feed the beneficial bacteria and make it multiply.
The beneficial bacteria are what convert toxic ammonia and nitrite into much less harmful nitrates.
If you water change,,,, you keep going back to square one.
Buy some seachem prime and use as per instruction.
This prime leaves the toxins there for the beneficial bacteria to still evolve,,,, but prime renders it non-toxic to fish.
Still take up Docs invitation,,, and listen carefully. There's no rush. All you have to do is understand.
No successful fish hobbiest keeps the fish.
The hobbiest keeps the water and the water keeps the fish.


#19 Virt

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 02:45 PM

Buccal, while I do appreciate the help, I do know how the cycle works and the ins and outs of establishing a balanced tank, i should have mentioned that this definitely is not my first tank wink.gif I mean no offence, just looking to save you some extra typing tongue.gif
Any and all nitrates are rapidly consumed by my plants, i expect to almost never see nitrates present unless I have added them myself.
The tank is cycled and has been for the last 5 months at least.
I have kept an eye on the tank and haven't seen ammonia present at all since cycling.
Will do some research on acceptable levels of phosphate when I get the chance.

#20 Virt

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:18 PM

Ta-Daa!
50% water change, canisters cleaned and a days rest and I'm left with this:
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Not perfect but definitely a whole lot better!
My canisters were pretty choked so I'm thinking that the UV was killing the free floating algae and leaving it hanging in the water instead of the canisters picking it up, that'll teach me for being lazy....

Hopefully it will hold, will see how it is after a week.
Also, phosphate readings (0.5) are present in my tap water as well.




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