76 replies to this topic

[slink]

Hi all,

So I'm having trouble thru these cold nights and days with maintaining my temps in my tanks. Shed is fully insulated with insulbreak by air cell.

This is what I have tried
Heater in each tank (worked well but costed way to much)
Heat the shed with a reverse cycle portable heater (was ok didn't maintain heat to well and the heater would need to be constantly running)

So any ideas you may have would be great

[Buccal]

Polystyrene

[slink]

Yeah I thought of that as well.

[Buccal]

It makes all the difference.
Extra advantages are to lower ceiling height as low as possible.
Have less air space in room as possible with as much water as possible.
Water retains heat very well and slowly emits the heat back into breed room air to contribute to consistency when it comes to the split system maintaining air temp.
Water jetting into air cools the water also,,, so surface jetting and not through air.
Using air pumps with bubbles passing through water also contributes to water cooling.
Filtration with Air pumps will give you inconsistent tank temps,,, being bottom ones colder than top tanks.

30mm polystyrene is cheap and easy to stand up against walls,,,, with a bit off nutting out its also easy to suspend it as a ceiling because it's so light,,,, eg, string out wire from side to side of shed and sit polystyrene on top.
Polystyrene and split system will Definetely do the job.
But know that when the split system is turned on,,, it will run for a few days almost non-stop then it will balance out heat between the water and air.
Then it it's efficiency will begin.

Edited by Buccal, 21 July 2013 - 07:46 PM.

[slink]

Should I place it behind the aircell or in front?
That might be the other issue as well as I was only running the heater for 3 hours a day

[Buccal]

Behind or in front should suffice.
But in front I'd imagine it's easier and also easier to tightly join ceiling into walls within reason.
The split systems have a thermostat.
When it's turned of then on again, it has to work over time to catch up every time and never really get there.
Don't fool yourself as to what's efficient and what's not.
To maintain a room temp at 25-27'c during these type night and day temps requires a fair amount of energy to maintain.
A correctly set up breed room with all advantages covered using a split system trumps any other method.
The use of refrigerant gas is very efficient,,, think of how efficient your fridge/freezer is.
The split system is the same,,, but can reverse to heat or cool.
Think of your breed room like this,,,,,,,,,,,
If your breed room is not efficient it's like expecting your fridge to work with the door one inch open.
However close that door and the seal is good as well as its insulative shell and it's like a efficient breed room.

[slink]

Hmmm that's a shame makes it hard with the tanks already in

[werdna]

Insulbreak is pretty crap for stopping heat from getting out.

 

Definitely poly, thicker the better.

My shed was heated with a single 400w halogen heater and kept all my tanks warm

[slink]

Yes I'm not very impressed with the insulbreak.

[Buccal]

Just saw the news Weather,, they say this cold snap is going to continue for quite some time.
Might be best to get some poly and tuck it in the best you can and ceilings.
As Werdna said thicker the better,, but in your circumstance,,, 30mm being a bit thinner allows easier fitting, bending and manipulation.
Just because the sheets come in 2.4x1.2m,,, it doesn't mean you can't cut it with a stanley knife into strips and rejoin it together in place for easier install.
If you have to go around wires and piping, then just make a top to bottom join in the sheet and pinch out with fingers the poly where the obstacle is.

[slink]

Thanks buccal how do I join them together? I have made the decision to shut it down I had a look at the price of the sheets and they aren't cheap and I have also broken my hand

[werdna]

Try here

http://www.perthcich...showtopic=15740

 

Hot glue works.

Or get some non-solvent based glue.

 

If all else fails, try PVA glue

[slink]

Yeah I was thinking about looking at them.

[Zabick]

Might be hard with tanks in there already, but if you can cover over the floor as much as possible it will help insulate it also..
Old off cuts of carpet.. concrete floors can make it alot cooler when trying to keep a room warm

[slink]

Yeah good thinking

Edited by slink, 22 July 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[werdna]

I wouldn't use carpet. If it gets wet its gets mouldy pretty easy.

That rubber recycled tyre stuff would be better IMO

[kassysimon]

Yes I'm not very impressed with the insulbreak.

 

 

Hey Slink.

 

The Aircell product you have used is only going to work if installed in a cavity and if so only insulates at about an R value of R2.0. Which is pretty low. And insulation only slows down the effects of temperature variances though convection. the air gap produced by the cavity is what gives Aircell products the R value. The air gap increases the time it takes for the air to pass through the wall composite.

 

Its pretty useless if installed on the back of any framing and left exposed. 

 

Ive seen alot of people mention using refrigeration panels. A 50mm panel will only provide an r value of about 2.5 which is still not very good.

As an example, a double brick, non-insulated cavity wall only rates at circa R 1.3 (if that). Given this value, on a cold night, place your hand on the wall whilst inside you house. You can feel the coolth (yes, its a word) of the wall. Take into consideration that the wall is a heat sink, since the wall is colder than the internal temperature of your house it is absorbing the warmth of the ambient air, so it is warmer than it should be and still the wall is cold. With this in mind you can see that an R value of 2 wont do much to stop the transference of hot and cold air. Although it does help.

 

Im not saying that it wont do anything but any gaps in any type of insulation will reduce its efficiency by as much as 30%.

 

Its also mentioned earlier that you should cover your floors too. This is true in summer but not in winter. The concrete floor (assuming its concrete) will act as a heat sink. In winter it will absorb all of your heat until it cant absorb any more and then when your AC turns off or the sun goes down it will radiate the heat out into the ambient air. (such as a sponge releases water once it cant soak any more). But you want as much heat to go into the water in the tanks before it goes into the floor so placing a covering on the floor is good for winter. But in summer you want the concrete to absorb as much heat as it can rather than the tanks getting hot and having to be cooled down, therefore its much more efficient to uncover the floor in summer. The concrete will absorb the heat and release it when its cooler at night.

 

The best bet in a situation where a specific temperature is required is to insulate all walls, ceiling and floor in as thick as panel as possible and negate the effetcs of external sources - sun and air.

Carpet on the floor will only slow down the transference of heat/cold but not for very long. So its only a band aid measure. Try standing on a concrete floor, barefoot for a few minutes and you will feel your feet slowly get colder. 

 

Insulation is a tricky thing but when used correctly it is also very effective. But the clincher is using the correct type given a specific situation. Is your shed in shade and at what times. Is there a deciduous tree shading it? Does it have eaves? Is it vented? All these things affect insulation and provide the answers for choosing the correct insulation.

 

But as a blanket measure, you could negate all of these factors and just use panel, you will find that this will be the cheapest route. Just get the thickest you can. 200mm will give you an R value of 10!

 

Sorry about the nerd talk. But it may help everyone understand insulation a bit more and save some people the hassle and money of using the wrong type.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Buccal]

Floor cover will help by about 0.5%, just being realistic.
80% of heat will be lost through ceilings as hot air rises,,,, and the rest through walls.
The sheets at the joins just need butting together,,, no glue is needed unless you want a seamless pleasing to the eye look.
If some little gaps here and there within reason is totally fine
It shouldn't be any more than $20 per 2.4x1.2m sheet at 30mm thick.
My guess is your shed is smallish and will cost roughly $300 - $400 to do the job.
Well worth the money considering the electricity saved.

[slink]

So the shed is 5x3 I just got a quote from a company that came to $693 maybe I'm using the wrong supplier if I was to go this route would it just be easier to remove the air cell?

Shed is in full sun all day no shade.

Edited by slink, 22 July 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[Buccal]

Obviously Kassy, you know the full logistics of insulation.
But when it gets to hard,,, it becomes avoided.
200mm all around consumes what is most of the time precious space,
Your info is based on shear relative insulation at its best.
A medium has to be met as these requirements are in conjunction of split systems or alternate heat sources.
I used 50mm polystyrene and my split system doesn't even come on hardly through the days at present,
A couple of longer periods through the night and that's it.
Apart from thicker walls,,, a serious advantage is as much water as possible because it's a good heat retainer and emitting in conjunction with split system warming air back up.
This may sound silly,,,, but stacking ibcs on top of each other full of water taking up unused space would work like heat banks.
Initially it would take time for them to heat up but after that the heat transference would Work in lieu with the air con.