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Heating A Shed


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#21 kassysimon

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:57 PM

agree with everything you said, its just finding that happy medium......thats the trick.......

 

Water in IBCs act as a thermal mass which in essence is the same as the concrete floor so having these in the room too is a great idea, good thinking......



#22 slink

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 02:27 PM

So what would you recommend I use kassy?



#23 Buccal

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 02:58 PM

So the shed is 5x3 I just got a quote from a company that came to $693 :( maybe I'm using the wrong supplier if I was to go this route would it just be easier to remove the air cell?
Shed is in full sun all day no shade.

The Malaga place tat Werdna has pointed out should do a better price.
See if they have scrap skins to cut the cost down.
Yep, rip out the air cell if it makes it easier. Can't take any more than a day.

#24 slink

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 03:06 PM

Yep I will give them a go :)



#25 sydad

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:08 PM

@ kassy,

 

I don't quite understand why you think that thermal mass is such a good idea. It has nothing to do with insulation, and subsequent heat loss. The only relevant factors are the temperature differential, and the K factor.. Certainly the rate of heat loss will change in proportion to the specific heat, but then so will reheating time be proportionally extended, so thermal mass is only a benefit with regard to evening out temp changes.

 

I used polystyrene foam as the insulation in my fish-room, but I opted for a hard grade which is more efficient (and more expensive). Then I went and put clear panels on the roof (about 35% of the total roof area). Despite the rest of the metal roofing being insulated, I lose a lot of heat through the double layered clear panels, so I'm in the process of adding an extra clear layer in an attempt to minimise heat loss. Nothing is ever simple.

 

Syd.



#26 kassysimon

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 06:29 PM

So what would you recommend I use kassy?

Hey Slink.

 

I cant speak from experience here as ive never built a fish room but if i was to build one i would be using refrigeration panels as my insulation. On walls, ceiling and floor. 

I worked with panels before and this is why i would use them.

 

No disrespect to what others have recommended or have actually used, this is just my personal view. 

 

Im not sure of the sheets that Buccal is referring to so i cant comment on those and i dont which product you were quoted on when you received your quote so i cant tell you if its a good price or not and i dont know the value of refrigeration panels either but if i was doing it, id be using panels. and the thickest one possible.



#27 slink

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 06:48 PM

Ok thanks mate I don't really have that option unfortunately.

#28 kassysimon

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 06:53 PM

@ kassy,

 

I don't quite understand why you think that thermal mass is such a good idea. It has nothing to do with insulation, and subsequent heat loss. The only relevant factors are the temperature differential, and the K factor..

Hi Syd.

 

The importance of thermal mass is to store and release heat. This will average out the change of temperatures experienced with hot days/cold nights and reduce energy consumption.

In the reverse, not using thermal mass correctly could increase the energy consumption by way of releasing heat into a room that is already above the required temp.

You are correct in saying that it has nothing to do with insulation but it has alot to do with thermal regulation. Hence your statement regarding temperature differential is spot on target.

I dont know what you mean by K factor, sorry. Can you elaborate on that please?

I used polystyrene foam as the insulation in my fish-room, but I opted for a hard grade which is more efficient

 

This works so well because the hard grade refers to the products density.

 

The more dense a product the longer it takes for the hot and cold air to pass through it and the more energy it will absorb.

 

Think of insulation as boarder patrol or Customs. It is only a barrier between two different environs. The harder it is to pass through Customs the better it maintains the desired effect. The harder it is for hot temps to penetrate into a cool room the amount of energy required to maintain that temp is reduced.


Ok thanks mate I don't really have that option unfortunately.

What options do you have? I, and the others here can help you decide which is better or better value.

 

Pardon the pun but this is fast becoming a HOT topic.......i think everyone would love to help and learn in the meantime too...



#29 slink

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:00 PM

Damn this is getting complicated :D

#30 Buccal

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:28 PM

It's not complicated at all.
Kass is spot on,,, but I'm also thinking in your court slink for you making it cheap as possible.
The polystyrene sheets are the same as freezer panel except that they don't have the thin metal glued to each side that's makes them strong and rigid,,, not much is lost by not having the metal on the outsides.
What we all must not forget in this situation is that slinks fish room is already built and standing.
A effective solution is needed to make a easy modifification.
30mm polystyrene I know Definetely works as the walls in mine are 30 and ceiling is 50mm.
30mm will bend and flex around what's already standing in slinks room which makes it easy.

#31 slink

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:33 PM

Thanks buccal :)

#32 werdna

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:34 PM

The more dense a product the longer it takes for the hot and cold air to pass through it and the more energy it will absorb.

No necessarily, gold is denser than polystyrene, however is an excellent heat conductor.

 

And compressed fibreglass insulation is a worse thermal conductor than loose fibreglass weave



#33 kassysimon

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:46 PM

Go with what Buccal is saying. We are talking about the same product.



#34 kassysimon

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 08:15 PM

No necessarily, gold is denser than polystyrene, however is an excellent heat conductor.

 

 

As a conductor sure, its U value would be huge but as a thermal resistor its terrible. So its R value (thermal resistance factor) would probably be about zero.



#35 Bickley

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:14 PM

So ill keep this simple for you Slink :) we're all points above are relative to what your asking I think your still looking for your answer. If money is a problem (which it usually is for a lot of people)?the cheapest way, not the best but still works fine is go to the company in Malaga (Werdna post you the link) go get a huge stack of free skins. If they let you sort through them bonus (my uncle works there so I got run of the mill :) lay them around your shed walls staggering the joins do as many layers as you want (more the better) you might get lucky and they will wedge each other up otherwise easy fix is to cut some 2x1 to length and make like a frame holding it all in place or what I did panelled out the walls with boards ( more expensive if you don't have access to boards) Then use the method mentiobed above (string/wire) to hold skins up as roof resting on the skins you just put up as wall. if the tin door has a support running diagonal down it pop the middle ribbett out and slide some foam on your door aswell. Go to buntings get some adhesive weather stripping to help seal the door up abit better. I had a heater with built in thermostat turned on couple times a day for 5 minutes all through winter but as mentioned above it will be on flat out in the beginning I thought my shed was a dud at first lol

#36 SamJohns

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:19 PM

I have found that my new shed which is insulated with poly keeps so warm!! Around 3000L of water. I have 5 300W heaters in the sump. Power meter rarely goes past the 1000W usage mark. Sometimes if I'm stuff around and leave the door open at night it will hit 1500W. But usually sits a under 1000 easy! I was literally jumping around the room after getting my last power bill and seeing it was only $350!!!! (I also have solar panels which obviously helps) but usually only putting back in about 700W.

Also using one sump for all tanks I find is very effecitive. Higher literate the long it takes to cool down. Therefore stays a more constant temp.

So POLY all the way!!!!!

Edited by SamJohns, 22 July 2013 - 09:29 PM.


#37 kassysimon

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:31 PM

So ill keep this simple for you Slink :) we're all points above are relative to what your asking I think your still looking for your answer. If money is a problem (which it usually is for a lot of people)?the cheapest way, not the best but still works fine is go to the company in Malaga (Werdna post you the link) go get a huge stack of free skins. If they let you sort through them bonus (my uncle works there so I got run of the mill :) lay them around your shed walls staggering the joins do as many layers as you want (more the better) you might get lucky and they will wedge each other up otherwise easy fix is to cut some 2x1 to length and make like a frame holding it all in place or what I did panelled out the walls with boards ( more expensive if you don't have access to boards) Then use the method mentiobed above (string/wire) to hold skins up as roof resting on the skins you just put up as wall. if the tin door has a support running diagonal down it pop the middle ribbett out and slide some foam on your door aswell. Go to buntings get some adhesive weather stripping to help seal the door up abit better. I had a heater with built in thermostat turned on couple times a day for 5 minutes all through winter but as mentioned above it will be on flat out in the beginning I thought my shed was a dud at first lol


You can get this stuff for free????

#38 SamJohns

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:39 PM

http://www.perthcich...l=&fromsearch=1

#39 slink

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:41 PM

Thanks bickley So I guess poly it is then :) what thickness do these skins come in? And lengths really sucks because I broke my hand last week and can't drive to go check these out :(

Edited by slink, 22 July 2013 - 09:44 PM.


#40 werdna

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:46 PM


This information was supplied by Mike "Warp".

Many thanks Mike.

Austal Instullation in Malaga Has heaps of "Skins" that range from 15mm - 40mm thick and about 4 odd metres long by 1.5 metres wide that they will literally throw at you if you roll up with a trailer and pick some up.

1 Denninup way Malaga

if you call Jenny on 92494022 she can point you in the right direction, otherwise they may have a deal for you for stuff that is already 50mm thick but you'de have to pay for that stuff.

Liquid nails works well to stick the layers together of the skins, buy the cheapest possible and make sure it is ok for polystyrene as some eat it rather than stick it.






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