86 replies to this topic

[Petert]

I'm fascinated with the recent discussions on rays, but I tend to lose track of the discussion as it always goes off topic.
Just like this one Now on who's in it for money etc, etc.
Please try and keep on topic

If someone is willing to share their knowledge at a PCS meeting dedicated to keeping rays next year, please PM me as I'm sure there's others with a keen interest as well.

[Poncho]

To me a good indication of passion for the hobby is wanting to spend time talking with like-minded people.
Never seen either one of you at a meeting so obviously I wonder how genuine these statements are that both of you are making.

But how about we talk about the issue at hand instead of each other. I'm more interested in the stingray situation than what either of you are doing

[Tarpon]

Another potentially stupid question, how dangerous are the barbs, what is the risk of damage, and can the barbs be humanely and permanently removed

Anyone?

[Buccal]

Dreams dont die if you love fish thats enough,
Also there are so many people that struggle to buy decent fish, i onsell to help my mates out and the people that want my fish, no money comes my way,you have so many tanks and supply to most shops in perth,with that many tanks i think there is a few dollars comming throu the door. a hobbie or a buisness? people should not pay a high price for cross breeding rays.........

As I mentioned much earlier, it's quite cultural.
The way we think here in our little pcs society is just a minuscule of other ways that are thought of.
Dreams don't die if you love the the fish and that's enough, yeah sure that's fine, actually I feel that way to.
But the way the hobby and business works, what one person thinks about his own passion then applies it to how things really are don't quite work.
Ok help your mates or make mates giving the fish away, I don't think theres a problem with that.
But way broadcast the below cost prices when you can pm privately.
Im sure you do know how damaging it is to the value.
Yes for me it's a business when it passed a threshold.
Dollars only come through the door with hard work like anything.
People do pay high price for the hybrids as well as quality considered pures.
The discussions I have with these breeders are very for filled and stimulating as to the procedures in great pattern reproduction.
And rays are not for profit for most breeders, it about trying to recoupe the costs of keeping them.
I make more money from electric blues than rays. In relation to profit.
My first batch of pups I can't sell them, I'm to attached to them.
I'm sure future batches I will start to change my tune on that.
But it must be understood that a moto selling for $250. Has costed the breeder money to produce that beast.
It's not enticing to start breeding after that, regardless if one keeps them just for the love of it.
Well, someone's got to breed them to make them keep existing in oz.
Due to size and requirements, there's not to many ray breeders.
This makes rays existence in oz a little shaky, regardless of how many around you see at the moment.

I'm fascinated with the recent discussions on rays, but I tend to lose track of the discussion as it always goes off topic.
Just like this one Now on who's in it for money etc, etc.
Please try and keep on topic

If someone is willing to share their knowledge at a PCS meeting dedicated to keeping rays next year, please PM me as I'm sure there's others with a keen interest as well.

Yes it's interesting.
Sometimes going a little of topic makes things a bit more clear and sometimes relate.
Keeping things black and white keep exactness and truth away.

[computerlog]

Anyone?

The risk of being stabbed is basically zero unless you do something stupid in which case I'd say you deserved it.

When I clean my tank I always have to push them out of the way by hand so I can algae wipe where they're sitting and when I do my pond I just make sure not to step on them.

There is no possible reason/excuse to ever remove the barb, just have some common sense.

[Buccal]

To me a good indication of passion for the hobby is wanting to spend time talking with like-minded people.
Never seen either one of you at a meeting so obviously I wonder how genuine these statements are that both of you are making.

But how about we talk about the issue at hand instead of each other. I'm more interested in the stingray situation than what either of you are doing

Wish I did have the time to attend meetings and become a full member.
But running a carpentry business and fish breeding, well you know the rest.
I can't even go on a holiday because of the fish.
My life is completely ruled by fish, that's all that's matters, yes, fish.

When it comes to these heated discussions, a true breeder that generates offspring purposely is never going to see eye to eye with a typical middle man.
It goes in circles.
Is steering away from topic with related subjects then back to topic called "of topic"
Just a question.

[Poncho]

Going off topic is fine per se but I think I speak for a lot of others when I say that I'm completely over this tit for tat crap that seems to just pervade every post made by some select members over the past few months.

The topic here is what is the minimum size tank (width but overall size is still relevant) for a stingray, in particular leopoldis. There have been some answers originally but some comments in those answers that are very confusing. I've highlighted them in previous posts and asked for further clarification. I don't mean to get personal but the answers I've received are lacking in credibility and when questioned directly you guys go off topic - with encouragement from fish lips who has been a sterling contributer of crap ever since he joined this forum (learn to shut up Dave).

In all seriousness, and because I do think this is a serious topic:

How many people do you think will house rays effectively for their total lifespan?
How many people are getting their hands on rays?
How is creating new strains making this situation any better?
Where do you think all these rays are going to end up?

More specific questions:

What tank dimensions are necessary to keep a ray happy and healthy for its natural lifespan?
How do you tell if a ray is indeed happy in your tank?

We all know the authorities have an eye specifically on the popular tankbuster species - look at the grey list. Now we have one that breeds and irresponsible behaviour here is going to make life very difficult for the rest of the hobby.
I still have some hope for some intelligent responses, not because I'm intending to keep rays, but because I know there's a heap of impressionable people thinking about it on this forum who don't have the nerve, patience or tolerance to wade through all the bickering that will result if they ask a less than simple question.

[Tarpon]

I wasn't trying to stir anyone up with this thread. I was genuinely interested in keeping rays and I am currently planning my dream home. It will have a fish room with space for 30 tanks and I wanted a showpiece elevated heated indoor pond with glass viewing panels for rays etc. However even if it is 1.5 m wide by 4m long it probably won't be big enough to house full grown rays long term.
Instead will probably settle for a 10m by .6m long tank down one long corridor from rear garage to main house
Anyway thanks for the feedback, I think I learnt something

[Buccal]

Poncho these are my opinions, and I'll answer them:


How many people do you think will house rays effectively for their total lifespan? At a guess, in Perth, about 5-10% of keepers. Over east, about 30-40% of keepers. Sydney is huge on rays.

How many people are getting their hands on rays? Not many people want rays in the aquarium hobby overall. But the people outside the loops that want them wait for years to get the chance. Rays lately available are products of closure from price plummets. This time round breeders are being more secretive as the hype is again beginning to build, this time hybrids. This plays part in how available they are to first timers.

How is creating new strains making this situation any better? The creation of color morphs is crazy exciting.
It's like what Forest Gump said, "life's like a box of chocolates, you don't know what's next".
The in depth discussion about probabilities of morphing and morphing already morphs gets intensely exciting.
Days before your pregnant female that has been crossed with another variety drops her pups is just so auxsilerating as to what crazy pattern is going to emerge.
The excitement keeps it fore ever alive. (not just the same old carbon copy of the parent popping out).
Also it's hard to pin a value on morphs as the originality or special factor is changing, (the better the pattern, the more they are worth), the breeder can label it to his discretion.
The value tends to hold on morphs for this reason.
Most ray breeders are similar to professional dog breeders, the history or background of the beast is well known and parents are specifically chosen. This knowledge ensures no mistake of mis-labeling.
If a breeder needs a triple spot moto, then a triple spot he will get.
In fact the parents of these recent moto's on the pcs were actually given up some time ago by their owners to make way for 50% Leo x 50% moto pup pairs.

Where do you think all these rays are going to end up? Unfortunately dead. The second half of their confined lives would be inhumanely strung out.
I believe it's the size of the beast that puts to much biological pressure on its tiny enclosure promoting pathogens and unsanitary conditions. The filtration can no longer keep up.
The shame of the owner would at a guess would be intense and not much of it would be spoken off.

More specific questions:

What tank dimensions are necessary to keep a ray happy and healthy for its natural lifespan? I would say a 10x4 to be thorough.
But also hoping you don't end up with a (tommy) ray. A term used by breeders for a or a few individuals that power ahead with rapid growth and turn out extra large.
Sometimes genetical runts can be born and remain on the small side the rest of their lives.
But usually runts are just late starters and soon catch up to the rest.
My rays are in 3.6x1.8m fiber glass pens. I have 4 of these pens.

How do you tell if a ray is indeed happy in your tank? Hard tell really as they clearly have personality differences. Some are real bullies, some are shy, some are complete bastards, but some of this may be due to confinement. All males reproduce mainly one way, that's brutal rape.
This rape is 90% of the time.
Happy rays will cruise and be foraging more than half the time. They as happy rays will check stuff out by swimming in or around things.
I've also observed they all go up to each other at once in a group and just gently touch each other or a bit of a nip.
Occasionally one on one meet up and they slide under or over each other and seem to have fun doing it.
Like with a lot of pets happiness is increased with regime.
Mine get fed at roughly sundown time of day. I also turn bright lights on over them at feed time, this steers that shy nocturnal thing out of them.
Lights on, they all congregate at feed time.

[Buccal]

I wasn't trying to stir anyone up with this thread. I was genuinely interested in keeping rays and I am currently planning my dream home. It will have a fish room with space for 30 tanks and I wanted a showpiece elevated heated indoor pond with glass viewing panels for rays etc. However even if it is 1.5 m wide by 4m long it probably won't be big enough to house full grown rays long term.
Instead will probably settle for a 10m by .6m long tank down one long corridor from rear garage to main house
Anyway thanks for the feedback, I think I learnt something

4x1.5 meters is fine mate. That's huge.
Don't get confused with feet and meters, but not saying you are.
Some inspiration may found googling rich man indoor koi ponds Japan.

[computerlog]

Another thing to consider when keeping a group of rays is that unless they're all one sex, at some point the males will need to be separated to give the females a break from being pregnant. So that leaves you with needing either two large tanks or a tank large enough to be divided while leaving an adequate amount of space.

I reckon a 4 x 1.5 m pond would be better than what 98% of ray keepers in western countries can or do provide and would definitely go for it. In the case of asian rays this seems about the minimum size pond

[bigjohnnofish]

wow nice vid... huge ray!!!

hey tarpon i have quite often caught stingrays locally in the ocean outside freo and down to mandurah and north to two rocks... and many times have i caught them and when got them beside the boat to either remove hook or cut line adjacent to the hook i have seen the ray with a short tail... fisherman boating these guys quite regularly cut tail off with barbs before processing the ray.... big meat cleaver or sharp axe are good for this...

the rays obviously survive and still grow... one ray i remember catching had a wing span of 2 meters +... and had a stumpy tail... dont think anyone boated a ray that big then cut its tail off!!!!

buccal keep the useful information coming and try to summarize it into as least words as possible so i dont fall asleep mid post reading it .

[Poncho]

Have just deleted all the personal bickering again.

You guys have been asked to stop. Now I'm telling you to stop. If you're stupid enough to start again you should expect an official warning from committee for disrespecting mods decisions. Depending where abouts you are on the three strike procedure, this may result in a temporary or permanent ban from the forum

[Jules]

Hybrids have not been talked about anywhere on this thread David, why you say this. ?

Hybrid rays are amongst some of the most amazing creatures out!!! (Im all for your breeding of them Buccal)
And i have never heard of deformities etc mixing them so whats the problem?? I dont get this hybrid stuff anyway.........

To me a good indication of passion for the hobby is wanting to spend time talking with like-minded people.
Never seen either one of you at a meeting so obviously I wonder how genuine these statements are that both of you are making.

But how about we talk about the issue at hand instead of each other. I'm more interested in the stingray situation than what either of you are doing

Would be awesome to be in a room chatting with a heap of ray keepers!! Please do it guys.

[Buccal]

I apologize if I have recently crossed the line.
Just to a final ballpark size for ray tanks.
If one intends to house a ray in a 8x3 foot tank or bigger, the ray is going into the top 30% of the bigger size set ups. This means it stands more of a chance of being happy with you rather than a high chance percentage of ending up in something smaller.
After all, this ray is already born and has no choice of its own, it's existing.
Going back to these mental disorders, they are very real for these ancient beasts.
I bought a 50cm diameter female and had her shipped from the east, yes shipped I know.
The breeder of this ray had sold her and her brother as a pair to his best mate when at pup stage.
His mate chucked them in a 6x2 foot and grew them up to 50cm in that tank.
One might say, what the hell, is that possible. Apparently a pool sand filter was used as filtration.
Now when I got the 50cm female to my place and in her new penthouse home (lol), she actually would stay hugged up tight in one corner, she didn't know what space was.
She wouldn't even swim out for food, I had to drop it in front of her nose.
At times when she seemed a little excited, she would turn around in circles and head away from the corner by 30cm then head back.
Very very weird.
This went on for about three months. As time passed, occassionally she would head out further and further.
Her next improved development was she would swim all around but keep heading back to the corner as if it was security.
Now she is completely cured, she glides around all day soaring up the sides, checking things out and interacting with her pen mates. She can actually be a bit of a bully at times.
So, you can see the way they are kept impacts on their brain behavior mechanisms more than we think when we talk of housing and confinement.
This is just the happiness of the ray having room.
Small amount of water volume is much less stable and pollutes a lot quicker, heavy filtration helps for sure with ammonia spikes.
But high nitrate levels remain a problem with small water spaces.
The toxins produced by a semi or adult ray is staggering as a result of high food intake.
Smaller systems require daily to every second day water changes.
Talking tarpons nominated size of 4x1.5 meters with two-three adult rays would roughly require only a weekly water change of give or take 40%.
Tarpon you would be amongst the better top percentage of keeping happy rays with that size set up.
Once set up, 4x1.5 meter will look massive and is massive.

Edited by Buccal, 25 October 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[Tarpon]

Once again thanks for all the info, I always like to research big projects.
The above posts have been informative, humorous and occasionally inflammatory. I appreciate the passion which a lot of you ray keepers have. I have learnt that rays are magnificent and intelligent beasts which require long term commitment. Unfortunately due to time pressure from work I don't think I could adequately care for rays and will probably replicate Lake Tanganyika instead in my big tank (I'll be on the lookout for WC Benthochromis in 2 years)

[scottyhooton]

Pretty sure all benthochromis are wild caught

[bigjohnnofish]

as i understand it this is initially a cichlid forum (and still is predominantly) and the rules were created to help keep many of the numerous speciies pure and available for future generations...

this policy is an old policy but obviously despite some people being against it and willing to fight it it has survived the test of time....

my question is - should this policy apply to fish other than cichlids ???

after all the intent of the no hybrid policy was aimed directly at cichlids - am i not correct ???

So can anyone name a group or species of fish that can quite regularly hybridise that isnt a cichlid ??? (obviously rays as mentioned in the above posts)

i can say there isnt many catfish that will hybridise... possibly some hypans will cross breed but given they have been around for years and it hasnt happened very often at all... i only know of a couple cases in 10 years and they are only hearsay.....

IMO i think its time to review the hybrid policy applying to all non cichlid fish..... what are your thoughts on this ???