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Pseudotropheus Livingstonii (Malawi Shell Dwellers)


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#21 Poncho

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 12:01 PM

Dithering is where you might have a tank of shy or skittish fish that hide all the time or get startled. You add some fish of a species that are a bit more gregarious and the fact that the shy fish can see other fish swimming around not worrying about anything can sometimes encourage the original fish to be less shy and skittish.

 

Adding fish to curb aggression isn't known as dithering but can be a useful technique for that particular problem. However, when using different species you do need to be careful not to encourage hybridisation. Flamebacks and other Victorians are not the safest options as they readily hybridise - I'd be using a non-cichlid or more of the same species.

 

Anyway, that's not the problem you have - it's what are the actual fish you have. In my opinion and on face value the fish in the pics do not look like hybrids. They look like individuals of livingstoni and perlmutt. It could of been a simple, honest mistake when your fish were netted. If I was you, I'd take the perlmutt looking ones back and ask if you can swap for some livingstoni looking ones.



#22 Mattia

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 02:10 PM

Yep, agree. There was a mistake somewhere when someone gave the nick name of "malawi shell dwellers" to the p. Livingstonii. The real one that lives in shells is the Metriaclima Lanisticola, in fact the name "Lanisticola" was given at the time for a reason: it comes from the word "lanistes" which is part of the name "lanistes nyassanus", the malawi giant snails where the baby M. Lanisticola find shelter :)

#23 LexAgate

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 12:28 AM

Ok so now I have seen what a true example is I have 5-7 fish I'm certain are P.livinstonii and the others I'm not sure I'll post some photos in the morning.

6c82a52a76554ade1fbb3bb8f3941819.jpg Does this look like a pure male?

The ones in the background are females, pure I assume...
0c8528706c94f54bc80d7638a4eeac3c.jpg


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#24 Ronny

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 07:25 AM

Unfortunately, if you bought them all from the one tank, all labeled as livingstoni, chances are, they are from the same supplier.  

 

If that's the case, they are probably all related and would all be hybrids, with some looking more convincing than others. 



#25 LexAgate

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 11:00 AM

So I understand how hybrids are greatly looked down on and all, I'm not going to keep and breed hybrids though. However I strongly believe that it is a common mix up I have attached photos below and I have 10 P.Livinstonii and 3 Perlmutt or something else Livinstonii female 9f4c66259c31d177c28f65dbd84d33f6.jpg Female two cdcddc511eeeafa8765fd6085a77177c.jpg Only male Of what I think is P. Livinstonii 236fca14ab0633a3f2683929a83ceb8a.jpg Here are the hybrids / perlmutt Male 9501ec1de44058d2fa94ab1b26ddaa40.jpg Male 2 44fdf722be5fec1d85de03203c0f4642.jpg Male 3??? c0f2d2b1388b95f79dfece11e9e14a69.jpg I'm hoping that when the previous keeper had these fish they simply had a mix up or maybe when they traded them into the shop they got mixed up in a tank with some others, but I can't see anything that points out hybrid to me, all females look the exact same like the photo Aquatic dreams shared.

Edited by LexAgate, 29 October 2016 - 11:03 AM.


#26 LexAgate

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 11:16 AM

So I can now see the resemblance of perlmutt in my colony my pics, compared to pics from google

16d3b26d189b4b8d5f13c0fd98f2a7a9.jpg3df5cd79700b7ca3b5e9b18f969b4e29.jpg29726118b4a20f0fe22a9ff07eb92e22.jpg

And I can see how closely my fish look to others P.Livinstonii
88241797153786192dd340022484d4c7.jpgf6dddf5329b6b7c4f5b1baf1ea2beecc.jpg9a11fc49a74a9d18d45ff05d45449b68.jpg9f3bb06773dea39d775c52c797009133.jpg
Also now seeing that males "bar up" when in the mood I can also see where a mix up could have occurred. Still no definite idea of if they are pure bred or not...


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#27 Ronny

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 11:28 AM

If there's any doubt, I wouldn't breed and distribute them.  



#28 LexAgate

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 11:48 AM

Might just try and get some money saved up and get something special from you Ronny, I love all your fish!!!


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#29 Morley Aquariums

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 04:12 PM

Not mixed up in the shop lex, all from a pcs member & kept as a songle species. Any stuff ups happened before she got them. Happy to take them back anytime as we are not in the habit of supplying incorrect fish. These came from a trusted source & went into a planted lower tank so were hard to see so we would have no indication of a problem with them. As before, more than happy to get them back & we are trying to get some more background on them as all previous owners are quality suppliers.

#30 Ronny

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 06:02 PM

If they were all from one, "single species" tank and there are some that are definitely questionable, that would mean they all are. 



#31 LexAgate

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 01:00 PM

Well from a closer look I can see a major different in body shape colouring and activity between the two, so I'm 99% sure there has been a mix up but not hybridisation. No specific traits are present in each other's species. Any others assumptions and help would be greatly appreciated!


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#32 Ronny

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 02:09 PM

As I said above, if they are from one source and ANY look dodgy, write them ALL off. 

The ones that look ok would just be the better of the lot but still hybrids if from the same breeder. 

 



#33 Buccal

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 04:30 PM

To generate fry and distribute, you must be 100% concluded of the purity, otherwise our remaining gene pools can be destroyed,, and the whole situation is definetely dodgy, to me I've seen pics here that look like nothing of perlmuts or P.liv, and some look closer to perlmuts.
This means, if your not happy keeping as display only, then offload them as crosses (don't label them).
These fish should go if your intending to breed.

But on the other hand,,, don't go over board in the future, as I see a few over board people around that think they can identify as if they are the makers of these fish, and see certain fish as not pure when they are.
As some aquarists havnt yet in their lives noted the changes that occur in genetics once a specie has been continually bred and domesticated,,, example, the staight thick black bars on red empress after five years of home breeding have the bars start to break up.
This can happen to many fish, but their still pure, this can happen slightly to body shape also, but there is a line before we call deformity.

It's important, that over the top people don't accuse wrongly the species that are in redline existence in oz already and then have them die out to never be seen again,,,,,, I hope everyone is mindful of this.

#34 LexAgate

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 09:34 PM

Well, I have no clue on what I will pick up next to breed any recommendations for a 140L tank would be appreciated


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#35 Buccal

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 06:30 AM

Unfortunately enthusiasts looking for something different is at a all time low, and is how the future will pan out.
Usually when someone asks what to breed, it means something that's not common and easy to sell,,, your best choosing something that's colorful and relatively hardy and above all, quality.
Not long from now fish species will start to drop like flies of our lists, and all Cichlid species will be very important to keep in circulation if possible,, if at all.
In the future, there won't be many people searching for rare stuff as it will all be to hard and for many impossible.
In the future, buyers will tend to be amateurs looking for colorful pretty fish and that's it.
So just by something that sells because of color,,, and it's only small dollars, just the way Perth people like it. :)

#36 Mattia

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 08:35 AM

Why are you so pessimistic Mark? I have seen in my "almost" 2 years in Perth an increasing demand for rare Cichlids, it all started from the German imports. I know very well at least 4 people who have started/are adding tanks to a fishroom and trying to source rare Cichlids since the German import. And many people looking and asking for rare stuff just to do a Tanganyika/malawi tank. You know a lot and have got a lot of experience with Cichlids , plus I'm sure you have got a lot of rare stuff too... you should start trying being more optimistic, share more pics and facts, and NOT bring everything down (especially here on the forum, as it almost sounds like you are killing what we-the committee- are trying to do - "spread the cichlid love" :P ) Maybe, with your positive attitude/help and information, we can help the young fellas get involved in the hobby and have new breeders etc. But if you keep posting negative stuff, that's not of any help.. especially for the ONLY Cichlid club in Perth. And if you are not helping, you know that you'll get poked right? But not from me, I'm the nice one :P

#37 Chopstick_mike

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 10:01 AM

Lex why don't you try your hand at the nubilus I think aquotix still have some or if you want something little bit harder to get they might be able to order some Lithochromis rubripinnis from over east
They are Victorians and are a little hardier than most and are usually pretty prolific breeders, I've got a small colony at home but the females both swallowed they mouthfuls :/

#38 Ronny

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:59 PM

Lexy if you or see anything over here (east coast) that you like and the buyer isn't illing to ship, if it's ot too far away from me I can help get it over to you ;)

I used to live over there and know how hard it can be to get certain things so I'm lways willing to help some of you get stuff over there :)

#39 Poncho

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 03:06 PM

Go through the profiles on cichlid forum and pick a fish that you like Lex. Don't pick something something that other people may or may not want to buy from you later as you'll be disappointed. Pick something you're interested in and want to learn more about with first hand experience.

When you have your eye on something you like and it's not readily available then ask here about how you might get it. You'll get the usual poo poo answer about how there are no fish in Perth and no one is interested in rare fish, but a few people here will most likely know where they are and will make an effort to help - that's what being in a club is all about ;)

So Mattia who is not the nice one? You're talking about dazzabozza right?

#40 Buccal

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 03:40 PM

Lol, negativity hey, that's funny.
Looks like the future is roasting up for a hardcore fisho scene then.




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