16 replies to this topic

[Peckoltia]

G'day people

Tankbusters and larger species are gaining popularity. With more and more people keeping species like Red Tailed Catffish, Tiger Shovelnose, Silver Arowana and Alligator gars. I am a firm believer that when you buy one of these larger species that this is just as much responsibility as buying a puppy from a pet store! These fish are capable of reaching the size of a small child (in some cases larger) in a very small amount of time. Back in the day these fish would run you $1k +, in recent times these larger species have become alot more affordable >$500.

I am absolutely passionate that fish should be given ample room to swim and grow the way nature intended. I think people are getting to caught up in the 'cool' factor in keeping these large species. Or 'look what i've got'. A few months ago when true Alligator gars came onto the market in good numbers I saw people grab them like hot cakes. WTF are people thinking? These fish can attain lengths of 6' +!!!! These are not practical species to keep. I personally own a 8x3x2.5 and think of this tank as a mere grow out for the larger species!

I have found myself leaving a couple stores in particular very irritated and upset lately. A pair of silver arowanas that I used to own have made their way into a LFS here in Perth. I sold these fish to another hobbyist under the impression that he was going to build a pond for them. YEAH RIGHT! I should have known better less than 1% of people get that big tank or build that pond! The two arowana in question are nearing the 2' mark in a 5' long tank. I even offered the store to trade them for species that stay smaller of equal worth, to which they declined my offer because they wanted $3,500-$4,000 for the pair of arowana!!!! I offered them a fair price. But greed blinds most people and the owners of the store said they would rather hold onto the fish- and keep them in a tiny tank with the grim hope that they will one day rip some poor bloke off and make a bit of coin(which happen to be PCS sponsors) THESE ARE LIVING ANIMALS! not a piece of merchandise on a shelf!

I'm also sure most of you aware of another sponsor who has almost 7year old Spotted gars that are a pathetic 30cm!!!! I confronted the owner about a week ago. He was happy to tell me he doesnt feed these animals enough and keeps them unheated in winter so they wont grow!!! these fish can grow to 3'!! But God forbid someone should sell a hybrid, what about these mistreated animals?!?!?!?

While the PCS finds it such a big issue that people are selling hybrids. Did anyone stop to think of the poor fish that are being kept in tiny quarters. A 2' fish in a 5' tank is pathetic!

Would you African cichlid keepers keep a 4cm Electric yellow in a 10cm tank? NO YOU WOULDN'T!

It's about time some LFS in perth lifted there game! and the PCS maybe focused some energy against some real issues.

Sorry for the long post, but this is something I feel absolutely passionate about. Their is nothing that breaks my heart more then seeing animals mistreated.

Alex

[KrUsTy]

Summed it all up beautifully. Good job and I totally agree
Justin

[NicholasC]

I 100% understand where you are coming from if a human was meant to grow to what over 6 feet then why make sure it only grows 2 foot that disgusts me actually that some owner would think of doing it!

For a while i was talking to scubasteve about a arowana and even a aligator gar but look at his "big ol tankbuster" picture it made me think well it would have a wow factor but what do i do with it once it is grow so i soon put that dream aside. But i am sure many others out there will not look into the future or even don;t care and get these fish to show off but soon what do you do with it and i would hate to see what they do do with them!

As for the store owners can you call any authority's for mistreatment? If a 2 foot arowana is in a 5 foot tank how does the poor thing turn around or even move to get it's food?

Well you have my signature and help for a petition or action against people doing things like this. This is exactly like those people who buy puppies or kittens during Christmas and it's gone to the pound the next week and in line to be put down! arr some people just sicken me!! :evil:

sorry for a bit of a rant but i do feel strongly for the miss treatment of these fish and i have been waiting for some people to mention this

[Peckoltia]

Or has anyone seen the Giant Gourami at another PCS sponsors store?

The owner will readily admit under feeding it to stop its growth. Why not just sell the fish to someone with a larger tank?

Hybrids etc are always so hotly debated. But it seems nobody cares about fish in tiny tanks?

[tracey]

hear,hear!!!!.......got my vote!! been seeing this all to often lately.

glenn

[Dex]

The saddest thing I've seen of this nature is a 1/2 meter pleco with a large sore on it's nose from rubbing against the front of the tiny tank it was in all day!!

yet another PCS sponsor....

Apparently this is a cruelty issue and reportable to the RSPCA. Just send them as much detail as possible eg. species, exact location within the store, date and time etc.

Not sure how effective this will be but its a start?

[Peckoltia]

I don'ty think it should have to come to getting authorities involved. I have had a word to a few store employees and owners, all of which gave me quite ignorant and monetary based responses.

I will be visiting these stores again over the next couple weeks. I will consider what form of action I should take from there on in. Would be great to have a bit of support. I don't tghink the RSPCA will be of much help judging by past experiences.

Alex

[OrangeBemba]

Hi Alex,

Great point you've brought up. I totally agree what your saying here.

Not really a comment, but a question.
Did these store owners say where these fish came from ? The only reason I'm asking is that the fish may have been in a much smaller tank than now and the stores are doing a good thing and are having trouble moving the fish to a new home.

The question is taking into account your comment below :-)

"I even offered the store to trade them for species that stay smaller of equal worth"

Maybe licenses should be introduced for large fish like these ? Personally I don't know what the answer is

[SynoAngel]

Hi Alex,

I personally agree with some of your points. But you haven't given the PCS any suggestions to improve the situation? How do you propose that we manage the issue on the forums or even at the stores?

If you feel so strongly about the issue then you should join the PCS committee in August and help out. But first you should consider joining the PCS as a member?

Ultimately any business will continue to sell their product or service, while people are willing to buy that product or service. The main problem comes from the people who are new to the hobby, and dont realise that its cruel. These are the people who buy the fish, which will ultimately become what you believe to be a tank buster.

What about trade-ins? These large fish dont always grow to that size in the shop, they are usually traded in because they have outgrown or become too aggressive in its own tank. The shop is pretty much forced to take the fish and try to on-sell it or lose the customer. In your case they wanted to make some $, however its not always the case.

For Example. Even if the PCS was to set up a system to retrieve large fish (45cm+) from the shops, where would they go? Would you and others take them and look after them? Does the RSPCA have somewhere for the fish to live until adopted? Its a mind boggling task IMO.

Regards

Daniel

[Peckoltia]

Hi Alex,

I personally agree with some of your points. But you haven't given the PCS any suggestions to improve the situation? How do you propose that we manage the issue on the forums or even at the stores?

If you feel so strongly about the issue then you should join the PCS committee in August and help out. But first you should consider joining the PCS as a member?

Ultimately any business will continue to sell their product or service, while people are willing to buy that product or service. The main problem comes from the people who are new to the hobby, and dont realise that its cruel. These are the people who buy the fish, which will ultimately become what you believe to be a tank buster.

What about trade-ins? These large fish dont always grow to that size in the shop, they are usually traded in because they have outgrown or become too aggressive in its own tank. The shop is pretty much forced to take the fish and try to on-sell it or lose the customer. In your case they wanted to make some $, however its not always the case.

For Example. Even if the PCS was to set up a system to retrieve large fish (45cm+) from the shops, where would they go? Would you and others take them and look after them? Does the RSPCA have somewhere for the fish to live until adopted? Its a mind boggling task IMO.

Regards

Daniel

G'day

Firstly I do not have the time to join the PCS board. I am a full time uni student, and also hold down a job, play sport and look after a house full of animals. I have very little time for other things.

It doesn't matter if you have been in the fish hobby for 1 day or 10 years it is easy to see when a fish is living in confines that are far too small for them. I am also positive that store owners/employees would also know enough about the hobby and the way fish should be kept to know when fish are being unfairly treated.

On trade ins. If the store doesn't have the tank space to appropriately accomodate a fish then don't take the trade in! unless of course the store is so fixated on making money at the expense of an animal. No store is 'forced' to take a fish. I work at Exotics in Wangara. If someone calls in asking to take a fish that we can not accodate we decline. Plain and simple.

Correct me if I am wrong. But is not frowned apon (or even banned?) that any PCS sponsor can not sell hybrids? maybe a similar rule that sponsors should not be able to keep fish in a tank size equivelant to keeping a human in a cupboard.

In any case. When monetarily viable for me I will always try save a fish in a small tank. As I did with the pair of silver arowana. But the greed of the owners has condemed these fish to a TINY tank. Even worse still the store is trying to sell the tank with the fish implying that the tank is appropriate living quarters for these animals.

Maybe if when people see things like this and have a word to employees/owners then possibly something might be done.

Alex

[shaggy]

Very good points there Dan.

I am fairly new to fish keeping about a year and a half now so I am still learning. The amount of times I have been given bad advice from LFSs is amazing. Often saying I can keep much more fish in a tank than ideal because the filter could handle the load. Just because they overstock their display tanks doesn't mean I want to do the same! Also suggesting fish for tanks that will be too big for the tanks is common as well. I rent so can only keep small tanks and 10L is a big difference in a small tank. So recommending a fish thats ideal needs a 40L for a 30L or even a 20L is a bit frustrating. So now I double check all info from the LFS on the net or with various books I own. Maybe the LFS could list the ideal tank size for each fish it would be much less frustating instead of the it'll be fine responce. I want me fish to be more than just fine I want them to be great !

I hope that was constructive and not just noise

jason

[Peckoltia]

Very good points there Dan.

I am fairly new to fish keeping about a year and a half now so I am still learning. The amount of times I have been given bad advice from LFSs is amazing. Often saying I can keep much more fish in a tank than ideal because the filter could handle the load. Just because they overstock their display tanks doesn't mean I want to do the same! Also suggesting fish for tanks that will be too big for the tanks is common as well. I rent so can only keep small tanks and 10L is a big difference in a small tank. So recommending a fish thats ideal needs a 40L for a 30L or even a 20L is a bit frustrating. So now I double check all info from the LFS on the net or with various books I own. Maybe the LFS could list the ideal tank size for each fish it would be much less frustating instead of the it'll be fine responce. I want me fish to be more than just fine I want them to be great !

I hope that was constructive and not just noise

jason

Hi Jason

I advise that you get information from books and online before buying any species of fish. LFS employees cop a bit of a battering from hobbyists. But the fact of the matter is to some people it's just a job. Not every employee can give you correct advice on every single species. However I don't agree with just making something up, it's far better for everyone involved to just admit that they do not know enough to comment.

Alex

[pacco]

I agree in principle with a lot of what you say, however stating there is a problem and offering a solution are two different things.

Personally, short of public aquaria, I think that gigas, RTC, alligator gars and similar fish just shouldn't be kept period. Although given the blantant advertising and smuggling of these fish, especially in the last few years, I think there is a strong chance of the ornamental fish strategy being approved and a lot of these kind of fish becoming noxious soon anyways. Maybe it would be more effective to alert authorities to the people illegally importing these tankbuster fish and stop it at the source?

In regards to LFS, I can only really respond to stories that I have personal experience with. I will assume that the Pleco with the large (maybe ~1.5-2cm btw) sore on it's nose referred to by Dex was the one we had traded in at Vebas (was temporarily housed in about a 5x2x2 in the middle top row). (/sarcasm mode on) I'll firstly mention that nothing gives me more pleasure than when someone comes in unannounced with a massive fish to trade in (/sarcasm mode off). Big fish not only take up a lot of space and eat a lot of food, but are also hard to sell. However, as Daniel has stated, it is hard not to take trade ins - because what is the alternative? And of course if you offer them a pittance so you can try to move it cheap to a good home - you are "ripping them off". Another recent one that I will assume was directed at Vebas is the Giant Gouramis in the top left display tank (I refer to FishGals post - although I didn't actually see the post - in the whole "Rockingham LFS saga") I agree that the tank they were in is too small for those fish - which is why they and the Pleco in question were moved to the larger bottom tank (the pleco has quickly healed up as well btw). However, when people whinge on public forums instead of inquiring about the fish in question it is a bit of a piss off.

In regards to the same level of responsibility as owning a dog or cat for these size fish I agree. However it doesn't stop people from unloading these when they see another "puppy" that is more interesting or cute. If you really want to take proper responsibility for your pets you house them and keep them for life. It would interesting to know how much the person you sold your pair to got from the LFS when they traded the fish in..... As if the store paid say $1500 for them I could see why they wouldn't maybe be interested in your idea of a "fair price". At the end of the day most of these fish aren't bought from the LFS, just dumped there when the owners no longer want them.

"This is exactly like those people who buy puppies or kittens during Christmas and it's gone to the pound the next week and in line to be put down! arr some people just sicken me!!"
Exactly, but blame the people who buy the fish without doing correct research or change their minds, rather than the store the unwanted fish are dumped at. (Just as a side note, both of my dogs and all the dogs my family has ever owned have all been pound rescue dogs - there are enough animals that need a second chance and a good home without encouraging backyard breeders.)

Out of interest, what are your moral thoughts on people who knowingly sell deformed fish to a LFS without informing them of the deformity? From a lot of what I read when stuff is going to the LFS it is all "Buyer Beware" and they should be checking them.... whereas if it is the other way around it is either "Ripoff LFS" or "Haha stupid LFS I bought this $100 fish as a $20 fish".

At the end of the day I can't and won't speak for any other stores, as how they run their business isn't my business - I have a few plans and ideas in terms of increasing the educational side of things at Vebas - but I have a lot of other things I am doing as well, so I'm sure it'll take months at least before they are fully implemented. In regards to LFS being "greedy", so sue me if I like to make a profit. I have close to a million dollars of personal debt, have worked the last 154 days in a row and start every day over $1500 down (not counting actually buying the stock I have to sell to recuperate that or any fish losses or unforseen expenses). While I want to and I am making efforts to improve my store in every way I can - I also can see that it is very easy to make high horse comments without actually proposing any form of solutions to the real underlying issues.

Anyway, that is enbough of a rant for me for the moment. As I said, I agree with a lot of your principles in terms of these fish - however I can't see an easy realistic solution, I can only try to do my bit as best I can.

Cheers
Pacco[/u]

[shaggy]

Alex
Funny you say that...my favourite LFS aren't particularly well versed in keeping fish but they try. Best of all if they don't know they say so! Honestly goes a long way

[Dave76]

Correct me if I am wrong. But is not frowned apon (or even banned?) that any PCS sponsor can not sell hybrids? maybe a similar rule that sponsors should not be able to keep fish in a tank size equivelant to keeping a human in a cupboard.

It is banned to sell hybrids on the PCS site, auctions etc. It is frowned upon for sponsors to sell hybrids, as it is frowned upon the 'mistreatment' of fish.

The PCS can not dictate to sponsors how to run their business, the same way sponsors can not dictate to the PCS how we run things.

IMO the stores are sometimes stuck between a rock & a hard place in regards to 'returned fish'. If they take them in they are critisised, if they say no we don't want them, the alternatives may be worse - fish being released into the waterways etc.

There is no 'fish refuge home/pound' to take unwanted fish - unlike cats/dogs - which half the time are just dumped without a second thought.

I think that the majority of the time the problem / fault is with the person who either originally bought the fish without properly researching the requirements and/or the person selling the fish in the first place but as with anything in life 'Caveat emptor' - let the buyer beware.

Dave

[madasa]

Its never easy to see 'apparent' cruelty, but once again this is a case of looking before you leap - i.e.know the facts!

I think what Pacco had to say is similar to what many of the largerand better LFS's would say, and, remember, these guys are taking fish which take up space and consequently profits. They are actually serving as a resource and sanctuary for many irresponsible fish keepers who haven't done their homework. If you feel so strongly about it then go buy yourself a huge problem and take the problem TB off of the stores hands.

Dave76 has also made a strong point - if the LFS's dont take thes fish, many might be released into waterways killing natural stock, which eventually would harm the hobby because imprt and keeping laws would become much stricter.

LFS at Wangara is excellent but then so is Vebas and i think we need to be careful here people because we are actually slandering sponsors without needing to mention names.

[Tucunare]

Alot of good points are made on this topic by all.
I think the person buying the fish should do the reasearch into the fish before buying it and realistically decide weather they can house a fish of that size once at adult proportions.
Alot of people on this site and in the TB community can accomodate these full grown fish, i know of atleast 6 or 7 people with big spaces of water capable of taking fish of this size, hense anytime i get offered big fish for sale like Gigas or Gators i alway ask these people first if they want to buy, if not then there offered either on here or for wholesale to shops.
Alex makes some good points about people jumping in Green on tankbuster, novelty plays a big part in this i think and again i refer to my first point that reasearch should be done before jumping in and buying a potentual monster.
Both sides of the coin should be looked at here though and as pacco said when your pushed for room and someones standing there with a bucket of fish "what do you do", take it in and hopefully accomodate it as best as possible or turn the person away and have the fish suffer the stress of it all??. Situations are very different though if someone is keeping 2' fish in a 5'tank permenantly, but i can see what pacco is saying when implying that if 5' the biggest youve got at the time then thats gonna have to do untill either a bigger tank comes up or it sells. Madasa makes a good point on this aswell, big fish that are kept for to long eat into profit so unless there as a display many shops will try move these on quickly anyway and are quite a nucience to keep around for long periods, Again though i think it stems back to the original buyer not doing there homework in the fish place and then DUMPING it on the LFS.
Im 100% against the ill treatment of animals no questions asked, but the situation varies from person to person shop to shop, Obviously if a shop is housing them in small tanks and has no real plan on moving them like alex mentioned there in the wrong totally, however if you get a situation like what pacco refered to then its really a similar situation to the dog pound, not the most ideal of situation but youve gotta do something and obviously these shops wouldnt hunt down and buy in fish that they had no room for.
i think everybody knows that Fish are the most mistreated pets as a whole, weather they be goldfish sold to a kid for there birthday who is setting up a 2ltr bowl that day for 5 fish, weather it be feeder fish ie :Barbs, Platys, Goldfish, weather it be subjecting rift lake fish to the conditions of a planted amazon tank, theres no way of policing these issues, Again it all comes back to education and information, i myself can only advise people on what is the right thing to do in my opinion, however at the end of the day if they choose to buy it, its upto them to look after it properly, this applies to all fish/Animals/pets, personally i think bowls are cruel for anyfish, and the teacups people house bettas in, but its there choice to do it and thats where the problem lays.
bottem line is if you cant cater for it dont buy it - simple as that.
my 2 or 3 cents
steve